OK, wonderful! Denise Logan—Weaving together her background as a lawyer, social worker and business owner, which is absolutely fascinating, has enabled Denise Logan to deftly guide hundreds of business owners and their professional teams as they navigate the complex emotional journey of selling their business and letting go into their own version of what's next. Denise knows that to business owners, selling a business is more than a transaction to them. It is an emotionally fraught period of transition filled with unexpected highs and lows, with no clear vision of what awaits at the end for them and their family. Her passion for this work is colored by her own experience of being an unprepared business owner who made an abrupt and choppy exit from her company after ignoring the signs that it was time for several years. Her own exit was followed by several years traveling and a 36 foot motor home all over North and Central America on her own with two sweet little dogs. But that's a story for another day—and I like to hear that story someday. Denise's two decades of research and thought leadership on the subjects of work, money and meaning, and how executives navigate the waters of transition and reclaim their sense of identity outside of their business has made her a popular speaker to audiences on three continents and a frequent commentator on the subjects of business, succession planning, transition and a legacy. She has also provided advanced training to advisors employed by some of the world's largest financial institutions, law firms and accounting firms, helping their clients successfully transition their businesses to new owners. And she is the author of The Seller's Journey, a book which I just finished a couple of days ago, which I found absolutely fascinating. And hopefully we'll get to learn a little bit more about it today. Born in Ontario, Canada, a fellow Canadian but educated in the United States, she now lives in Arizona, where she is happy to remind others when it's hot that they don't have to shovel sunshine. That's a bit of a mouthful. So, again, thank you for joining me here today, Denise. It's been a few months of planning. We had tried to get together several times. And I'm so happy that we were able to make that happen today. So, welcome!

Denise Logan

Thank you!

Maureen Farmer

I have so many questions, Denise. And I thought maybe you could just tell us a little bit about some of the highlights, you know, from your training that you've done, from the speaking that you do and maybe who your ideal client is. And we can just kind of dive in from there.

Denise Logan

Sure!

So, I love that you're excited about the motor home trip, and that could absolutely be its own adventure. You know, in my early life, I was a mental health professional and then I became a lawyer. And I always say if I was a good mental health professional, I would have kept myself from becoming a lawyer. But I reached this point where my business had grown to a pretty significant size. And honestly, I knew it was time for me to leave many years before I actually did. And when the time came, I made such an ugly, choppy exit from my business. Partly I was just too burned down. And I think about how many of your listeners, you know, we will all leave our work at some point, voluntarily, involuntarily, and our identity is often really wrapped up in who we are. Can I tell you a silly little story about some of the things that led to my own exit?

Maureen Farmer

Absolutely. I can't wait to hear it!

Denise Logan

So, as you know, I was on the board of directors of a trade organization, and I think it was probably six or seven years that I've been on this board. And they brought in a facilitator to help us with our team building. And, you know, none of us really love team building exercises. We're just like, oh, good Lord, it's a Tuesday night and we're going to be stuck in a ballroom with people that we're already sick to death of. So, we show up in this ballroom and the facilitator says we're going to stand in a circle. Already, I know you're rolling your eyes at home. You're like, oh, my gosh. We stand in a circle and she says, we have to introduce ourselves to each other, but we cannot use any traditional moniker. So I can't say, I'm Denice, I'm a wife, I'm a mother, I'm a lawyer. I have to describe myself to people who I've known for years with something that they don't know about me, some other part of my life, and honestly, I was like, what else is there? I mean, my business and I'm married and like, what else is there to my life? So, as the conversation is moving around the circle, the first person says she plays the harp at the bedside of dying people in hospice. And I was like, wow, that's something pretty interesting. And then another guy talks about how he was restoring an antique car in a storage locker somewhere as a surprise gift for his 16 year old son and every night when he got into bed, he was worried that he had dirt under his fingernails and would his wife figure it out and ruin the surprise. So this is like creeping around the circle and with each person who has something to say, I was like, oh, my gosh, how interesting. Oh, no, I have nothing to say.

Maureen Farmer

Right.

Denise Logan

So it was probably three or four people in the circle before me and I decided I was going to excuse myself to the ladies room. So I take my purse and when I exit the ballroom, I realized ladies room is to the right and the parking lot is to the left. And I bailed.

Maureen Farmer

You didn't, did you? Really? Now, that sounds like something I would do.

Denise Logan

I completely cut out and I got in my car and I was crying because I realized my life had become so narrow that really my business had taken up every bit of space. I think when I got home that night, it was probably pretty stressful for my husband as well. So, we were law partners at the time. And I start going on and on about how I have no life and what is my life worth. And I'm sure it was super scary for him to watch me begin to unravel, of course. And I started down this path trying to figure out who I was other than just my business, other than just my work. Ultimately, I started taking figure skating lessons. I got a divorce, you know, ultimately merged my practice with a large Baltimore firm, got rid of my house and bought a motor home. And I ran away for what I thought would be six months to clear my head. And it turned into several years.

Maureen Farmer

So, I'm very curious about the moment in the ballroom when they were going around the circle, was that the trigger moment for you or do you think it was a culmination of things that was triggered by that moment?

Denise Logan

I think it had been brewing for me for a while. And so from the moment in the ballroom to the departure in my motor home was a several year process. When I look back on that for myself, I often refer to it as like a mask. We have this professional mask on and it was starting to fit kind of wonky, right? It no longer really fit and it was kind of cracking. Sometimes it was held together like with duct tape. But each time, each morning when I had to put this mask on of who I was that I no longer wanted to be...didn't fit.

Maureen Farmer

Right.

Denise Logan

I think probably a lot of listeners can relate to that experience where we know it's time for us to leave. But it is really difficult to make that decision and we get very aligned with who we are. I wrote a column several years ago called, What Do You Do? And, you know, we're asked that question. What do you do—whether or not it has any relevance? A couple of months ago when we could finally go for a haircut again during all of this Covid-19 lockdown, I'm in the hair salon and the woman sitting six feet away from me in her chair with a blow dryer is going over, 'so what do you do?' And I said, 'You want to know how I earn my money?' So, think about it, what does the question, 'what do you do' really serve? Me personally, as I began exploring some inquiry around that, I think that is actually a social pegging question, right?

Maureen Farmer

Right.

Denise Logan

And if you're thinking it's not—for anyone who's at home saying, 'well, no, it's not'. Think about how differently you feel when you're answering that question with what feels like a prestigious answer or a less prestigious answer. And for anyone who is out of work or contemplating leaving their business, knowing, you have to have an answer to that question, 'what do you do,' is terrifying.

Maureen Farmer

It causes people a lot of sleepless nights and a lot of sweaty palms. And I know for an absolute fact that a lot of people would rather have...it 's sad to say...they have an illness than to admit that they are currently not engaged in a job or a business or some type of what we consider a socially acceptable answer to that question. And growing up in a Roman Catholic family where I grew up, there was a lot of meaning attached to what you did. And in my family, my father was a military person and there was a lot of pride. He was very proud of what he did and he had done very well. So there was a lot of attachment to that question. Absolutely. So, but I can't imagine, though, in that context asking a complete stranger without invitation, you know, 'what do you do'— that feels quite invasive.

Denise Logan

Pay attention over the next couple of weeks to how many times we're asked that question and how many times we default to that as a question to ask so often. Yeah, here's my silly response to it. When someone asks me, what do you do, I say about what? And of course, I know what question they're asking me. What I'm doing is reframing it. And often the person will say no, well, like, what do you do for a living? And then I often reply, 'wait, you want to know how I earn my money?' At which point someone will often say, 'well, I just want to relate to you.' Oh, good grief. Are there not a hundred thousand other questions we could ask each other about relating? Like, what book is on your nightstand? Right. What's your favorite restaurant? You know, all of those things. And so I think especially when we're talking about transition, that's a really important piece. A question that I often ask business owners when I'm working with them on their transition is what does work provide for you? Other than financial security and money. And we should be able to get somewhere between 12 and 15 distinct answers to that question, because work is giving us a lot more than just our money. And if it's not, well, good grief.

Maureen Farmer

I have a confession Denise. I've listened to your other podcast. Well, I know you speak  in many podcasts, but I listened to Russ Hayworth's interview with you.

Denise Logan

So fun!

Maureen Farmer

Twice. I took your idea or your strategy of the list and what does work provide for you. And I use it now in my own practice.

Denise Logan

I'm so happy!

Maureen Farmer

Oh, it has been a really interesting exercise. And I'm working with one particular person right now and he got really frustrated with it because I made him do it with me on a Zoom call like you and I are doing right now. And we got to 12, 13...and he still hadn't mentioned the power question. And this person is in a very public position. And it wasn't until then that we really...like exactly as you said at the very beginning...and I'll let you explain it so the listeners get the real version of it. But the very beginning was, of course, money, you know, somewhere to go in the morning and so on and so forth. So, the list is brilliant!

Denise Logan

You know, and it will be different for different people. But my premise behind this is that work meets so many of our needs and those needs don't go away just because we get a big sack of cash or because we suddenly are freed from a job we don't like. So the early answers to that question and the reason that I suggest you get 12 to 15, answer 20 if you can keep going...is the early ones are easy. They are things like, OK, so money we've taken off the list, but it's a place to go...think about during this time of restriction and when we've all been home, good grief, don't you just want your spouse to go to work?

Maureen Farmer

Yes, yes!

Denise Logan

Don't you want to go? A chance to get away from my kids? I just want to go somewhere. So work provides a place to go. For many of us, it also provides friendship with coworkers or customers or vendors. They are our friends. So, how will you get your friendship needs met knowing that, when you leave this job? That's one of the things that people struggle with a lot. They leave their work and then they're lonely and it's hard to explain to others. Well, what do you mean? So friendship. Some of the other things that often come up is structure. Right, a reason to get up in the morning because, you know, you have to be somewhere, but then we get to some more difficult ones. And you're absolutely correct. The power one is one that comes very late or people don't admit it at all. But if you think about it, at work, you say, I want this done. And generally it gets done by someone...not so much at home.

Maureen Farmer

Yes, absolutely.

Denise Logan

What I always say is the later ones that come up in this exercise are the more difficult ones that we need to pay attention to. So, it's the reason why oftentimes someone will say, 'well, you can volunteer', right? So, you'll retire and then volunteer. But volunteers want to be in positions of authority. Right? If you have been in a role that gives you power and, you know, power sometimes has negative connotations, but it also has positive...

Maureen Farmer

...or influence, you can say influence or inspirational leadership. I mean, it's still a positional influence that you have over not just your employees, but over your own destiny too.

Denise Logan

Yeah, there's a sense of respect. There are all kinds of things that we get from our work. So I think about even if you're just changing jobs, are you going to a new role that will meet those needs? And if not, then where will those needs get met? Because otherwise watch people, they switch to a new job and in 18 months they think it's about the money and they will tag on, 'I got a bad bonus" or "I need to move to another company'. And what it's really about is this role is not meeting my needs. So identifying the needs then lets us know, is there a right role to take?—number one. And number two, if you're dissatisfied in your current role, then what are the needs that are not getting met? And it is so easy to default to the, 'I'm under compensated, right?'

Maureen Farmer

Yeah. In my experience over the past ten years, it's been if they're employed and they've been there a long time and there's a sudden shift in the board of directors or there is a new member on the team (is another major one) and it takes a really long time, I find sometimes to actually get to the bottom of what the actual issue is with people. They won't admit it or they're not self-aware or they're devastated because they've invested twenty five years of their life in an organization where they were esteemed and respected. And now a new entry into the sandbox has really changed how things unfold and how they feel. They're not happy. They're not happy at home. You know, it can have a devastating effect. Absolutely. On people, for sure.

Denise Logan

You know, there's grief and loss that happens even when we're making a change that we're excited about. So, I think about this, you know, my own transition and it's been more than 20 years since I made that transition for myself. But I think about the things that were going on for me. Even the day that I saw the moving truck came, trucks came and took all of the furniture and the file cabinets and the supply, like everything was going to the new acquirer. And I remember trying to catch a glimpse of the moving truck as it was. The last one was pulling away from the office building. And I leaned toward the window to catch a glimpse of it. And boom, I smashed my face on the window. And when I stepped back, I had tears rolling down my face. But I thought, 'I don't think I hit my head that hard', and it wasn't because I hit my head on the window, I was weeping over my entire life's work...it had just turned the corner and it was what I wanted. So both things are true, right? I have this moment where we get what we want and there's still loss. So in the weeks following that, of course, I loved being home during the day and I could go out on the patio and have a cup of tea, and then I would think, 'oh, I should tell so-and-so...Oh, that's right. I don't own this business anymore. It's not mine to tell.' So there was a pretty good period of transition of coming into who am I without this known role that I had been in.

Maureen Farmer

So, your sense of identity was really shattered because it was, you know, all of the meaning that you had, all of your list was gone.

Denise Logan

Yeah, absolutely. And then, you know, I take off in my motorhome, which I thought was going to be just six months to clear my head and figure out what came next. And of course, it turned into several years. And I tried this interesting thing because, of course, people want to know, like at the time I was in my mid thirties. So I clearly did not look like the other people who were out and about midweek in their motorhomes and campers right? I did not have blue hair. And so inevitably someone would say, so what did you do? Or how is it that you're out here? And I made a choice that I was not going to tell people what I did. Instead, I would ask them, what do you think I did? Oh, it was such a fun game.

Maureen Farmer

What a twist!

Denise Logan

It was so fun because in many ways, I was trying to figure out who could I be next? And I got lots of fun answers. As a point of personal pride, actually no one ever guessed lawyer.

Maureen Farmer

So, what were some of the fun answers? 

Denise Logan

There were a lot of art related things. So, someone would guess I had owned an art gallery or that I was a sculptor, which neither of which could be further true about my creativity perspective. But it allowed me to see myself differently through other eyes. And that's such a fun experience to really think about. Who could I be?

And yet, you know, I had all of this time invested in the building of a professional services company, and I had all of this time from law school and from my training before that. And I hear it a lot from people that they'll say, well, you know, 'but gosh, I have this MBA and I really should put it to work' or 'but I'm a doctor and I, you know, and I have all this money invested in my training'.

Yes. And it's your life. It is your life. So you get to choose. In the years after when I finally came off the road, you know what I did at that point? I reconnected with a long time friend of mine who owned a business and he was preparing the business for sale. And he said, why don't you join us and help us sell? And if you don't like it, get in your house on wheels and drive away.

Maureen

Sounds like a good offer!

Denise Logan

Yeah. And I was there ten years and over that ten year period, we took that business to the market three times and he was unable to let go. And so it was a fascinating moment, actually, a series of moments where I realized you could be me and wait too long and just be ready to give it away. Or you could be him and go too early and not be ready to let go. And that was the genesis of the work that I've been doing for more than a decade now. I did a lengthy research study to try to figure out what drives that. You know, why do people go too early or stay too long? What is that? And then, of course, I wrote the seller's journey and I've been out speaking and writing for more than a decade now on those concepts of how work, money and meaning weave together into a legacy from our lives.

Maureen

Can you tell us a little bit about the research project? I don't think I learned much about that in the last couple of podcasts. I've been listening to you on various podcasts. I'm very curious about the research. Tell us a little bit about that. How did you go about it?

Denise Logan

So, you know, one of the things that I had been doing for quite a while was really exploring with people why they made changes. And that had just been part of the work that had been fascinating me for years about change and why people change careers, why they change jobs. Even in my own transition, I really looked at—there were things that were valued from my time as a lawyer—you wouldn't know it because I seem like such a nice girl, but I'm honestly a really strident litigator.

Maureen Farmer

Those are the best ones.

Denise Logan

No, haha, it's not very nice to live with me when I'm litigating, I can tell you that probably had some good contribution to the divorce. And I had a case that went to the United States Supreme Court when I was practicing law. So the litigation part of my skillset super valued, but I knew it wasn't something that was good for me. So when I was thinking about how to position myself for a new role and I didn't know what to start a new business in, what would I do? I really looked at what were the things that I enjoyed and I was good at. And not just the things that other people value. So if you were to look at a resume from that post legal time of mine, you would never see litigation on it, because I did not want that to be the thing that someone else would want me to do. And I think about that a lot, probably for your clients, too. There are those things that we're good at and we feel like when we create our resume, we have to list all of the things that we have done. What if you don't want to keep doing those things? Stop highlighting them.

Maureen Farmer

Oh, I agree—100%. I just had this conversation with someone yesterday. Keep it away. Don't let anyone know you can do that thing, because then you'll be known—you'll be pigeonholed potentially as being good at that thing that you don't want to do. So, I have a whole exercise similar to your list exercise that we go through and we look at those various skills that we are really good at. But do we really want to use them? And when we take an inventory of those and figure out, OK, those are the ones we don't want to focus on because it doesn't bring us joy. So, it's an eye opening experience for people. And I think it's really smart of you to have to have done that because a lot of people don't. They just keep repeating the same story over and over again. And I myself have done that as well. So, it's not until you really stop, take stock, take inventory. And really, that should be the genesis of decision making, in my opinion, for career.

Denise Logan

And looking at what are the things that I liked that I was also good at or maybe wanted to grow in. So, as the leader of a large law firm, I was the face of the firm. So, business development was a great fun skill set for me and I never really thought about it like business development. For me. It was, I joked that my life was cocktail parties, conferences, and coffee.

Maureen Farmer

Sounds pretty good to me.

Denise Logan

Yeah, but if you're an introvert, that would probably be hell, right? You'd be like, what? Please don't make me do any of those.

Maureen Farmer

Right, right.

Denise Logan

So, when I looked at what were the things that were useful for me. So, my current role, I say I am the Sellar Whisperer. You will not find that in a career catalog.

Maureen Farmer

Denise Logan

There is no job of Seller Whisperer. What I realized was what were the great skills that I have and how could I deploy them in ways that also use the experience that I had. So having been through my own transition, having walked through that transition with another business owner, having spent a lengthy period of time studying what that was, what was happening for business owners and just people in transition in general, I started to look at what is that? So, I wish there was someone like me who had helped me when the time came for me to leave my business, and there wasn't. Instead what there were, were lots of really well-meaning friends and associates who said things like, 'oh, you're burned out'. 'Well, you know what? Just go on vacation or get a new car' for all of those things are culturally right. They're told will solve this problem. So, when the time came for me to leave my business, I'm quite certain that many of the people around me looked at that and it probably looked like a nervous breakdown because it was a successful, thriving business that I said I don't want anymore. And it took courage. You know, years ago I spoke at a conference in Ontario—a women's conference—was quite fun, actually. I think there were four hundred women at the event on the island for those who are listening, who know Ontario. And so, you know, normally I have kind of a sanitized version of my exit. And on stage that day, I decided to really open up about like how crazy it was and how hard the exit was. And I thought, oh, that's the first time I really told that publicly. So I thought, it's probably a good time for a little break. Right now. I go in the ladies room, splash some water on my face, and when I came back on stage, I said, you know, that's the first time I really told the full version of just how ugly and choppy this exit was. How did that land? So, a woman from the back of the room stood up and put her hand on her hip. And I thought, 'oh, that's not going to be good.' And she just dressed me down and she unloaded this whole thing about 'here I thought you were successful and you're nothing but a fraud and a cheat and la la, la, la, la'. I wish your listeners could see your face right now, Maureen. I'm worrying because that face that you just made, like eyes wide, mouth open was me on stage as I'm...I was like sweating through my blouse thinking what? When she finished, I took a deep breath and said, 'thank you. You just said every single thing that I've been worried someone would say to me about my exit and a few I hadn't yet thought of so thank you for pre-warning me. And the question that I had for her, I said. 'So, my question to you is, what are you unwilling to do in your life because you are afraid that someone will say to you your version of what you just said to me?' And so I just feel like kind of proud of myself. And she turned on her heel and stormed out the door of the center and one third of the audience got up and stormed out with her and I'm thinking, oh goodness, this has gone wrong in a big way. But here's what I remember. Two thirds of the audience remain. I never went back to my notes for that weekend retreat. Instead, I dropped down very deeply with the people who were there—into what are the choices that we are not making in our life because we were so terrified about the judgment of someone else. Right. And how we know internally, long before we are meant to make a transition, it starts bubbling up. The questions are coming. We're thinking about it. And unless we pay attention to those warnings that are coming for us, at least this is true for me. I started to make unconscious choices that led to my exit. So, we can do it consciously. We can say it is time for me to move on and do that with some intentionality and care for ourselves and the people around us, or it can still happen without our participation.

Maureen Farmer

So interesting. So the people who left, what do you think was coming up for them during your disclosure? A very, very, very, very difficult and probably very emotional and provoking vulnerability, I guess, is what I'm trying to say in that moment. And imagine what that says about that person who would get up and turn her back on another person at a very vulnerable time, what does that say?

Denise Logan

So, I'll tell you what I think. What I heard her say was I thought this was going to be a fairy tale story. Right. And, oh, it's kind of choppy. Right. And it was disappointing for her, is what I really think. There wasn't just a simple formula to follow that oftentimes in making the transitions we need to make. It is difficult. And because I still had the rest of the weekend on an island with people who walked out—I'm actually really tickled and delighted that I had the opportunity to share in that way.

Maureen Farmer

Of course. what a unique opportunity that very seldom we get with someone who has a, you know, a legacy, I guess isn't the right word, but has an important story to tell and in a very real way.

Denise Logan

But if we think that there's a perfect way to do it, then hearing someone say there's not a clear path and it isn't always success—there is up-down success and whatever the other side of that is, for many people, that sounds like failure. And certainly for me at times it was that—where at times I was like, oh, did I do the right thing? I can't go back. But what I know for me is that that transition had been in process for so much longer, which is why if I go back to the early story, that you and I talked about, you know, being in the ballroom, well, that for me feels like a pivotal moment. That was not me moment. Right. That is a moment that stands out in time for me, right. Where I was needing to ask myself, who am I more than just my work? Truthfully, I was sad that I had lost all of these other parts of who I was and who I could be. And it was challenging to try to figure out how to reclaim those and to do it in a way that was not threatening to my business partner, to my employees, to my marriage partner—to be in that place of, you know, we often do it where we build our life up to this way that it looks like I can't make a change. Not true. And not like the consequences of making a choice to change.

Maureen Farmer

...the courage to try and to make it work. And I think that I've been learning a lot about family businesses, and I don't really consider what I do a family business, but it is a business. And so I have been listening very intently to to Russ Hayworth and different people in the family business world and talking about business owners, some of the multigenerational business owners who are making this huge monolithic change, a decision to leave their business. And I think the statistics are 70 percent of business owners do not close the business or don't close the exit on the first try. Is that correct?

Denise Logan

Right. So only 30 percent of business owners who try to sell their business are successful, which is a tragedy. We cannot allow that to continue. And the truth is that every business owner will leave their business voluntarily or involuntarily. So, I often hear business owners say, I'll die at my desk. Actually, you probably hear your own client say yes, well, I'll just die at my desk. Well, you know, how tragic is that and how ridiculous, because that assumes that we have control over a whole lot of things that we don't have control over. There is no guarantee that you will get to work and be healthy until the very last day of your life. And so to me, what that signals when someone says, I'll just die at my desk—they don't know who they are without this work and how to get those needs met. That takes us back to the original question. So, I was doing a training with a group of business owners and their spouses—super fun retreat and one of the business owners and his wife that I had engaged with—in this exercise and he said, I'll just die at my desk. Seeing her face was heartbreaking. And as I probed a little bit more with him, he said, it's the only place I really feel alive.

Maureen Farmer

Wow.

Denise Logan

Ouch. Yeah. What does that feel like to be a spouse of a person who says the only place I feel alive is at work?

And sometimes I hear, you know, when I talk to people when they're in transition, they'll say things like, 'well, you know, I can't just shut off at five o'clock and go home' as they're used to overworking. And I always say, 'why is going home when you shut off? Why is that not when you turn on'? Right. How did this get distorted? So, we see it a lot with business owners, I'm sure you've heard me tell this story before, but, you know, our business becomes in many ways like a child. Right? And when it is time for that last child, the business to leave home, we're forced to look at our life partner and say, do I like you? Do we have things in common? What will we do with ourselves? And often if someone has not addressed that issue, they will try to keep the business in play as a way to differ. I think a lot of these things come back too, so I have two specialty trainings that I think are really fun that fit into this. One is I have a specialty in work and financial disorders.

So, if you think about it right, we get addicted to our work, we get addicted to money and those often are substitutes for connection, for attachment. As human beings we're wired for attachment and as babies, we learn how to attach to inanimate things if we cannot attach to a person. And that's a survival mechanism. So for many of us, we have learned that work won't let me down or money won't let me down. And it is super difficult for those people to then begin to reattach to people. But that is our true safety. I wrote a column several years ago called Is Money Your Security Blanket? And it really looks at how we attach to work and money as a substitute for connection to other people. The other specialty training that I have is in a discipline called thanatology, which is 'end of life'. So for many people, leaving their work feels like death. So, we look at things like a 72 year old business owner who says, 'well, I'll just like work another 20 years'. We hear it!

'I've got 20 more good years' and you might. But we live in a culture that is very mortality denying. And so we pretend things like—I'll die at my desk. OK, well, that might not be your choice. You might actually need to leave your work because of illness or the company sells or any of the reasons why we're compelled to leave our work. Isn't it more satisfying if you know how you will get your other needs met, if something happens unexpectedly? Wouldn't that be better?

Maureen Farmer

A lot of people, you know, and I only know this because of the work I've been doing over the past probably nine or ten years, but, you know, don't have the—I don't know what the word is. Don't have the skill, don't have the self-awareness, perhaps maybe—to give voice to some of these needs and, you know, even the conversation around what work means to you and really thinking in a very deliberate way about what does it mean for me. We get out, we go to work every day. It's kind of like what we do. It's part of our culture. It's part of our practice. You know, sit back and think, what does it really mean to me? And how do I plan for the future in that way? And I know from reading your book and listening to the podcasts that you've been interviewed on, that your work has been or is—you do private one on one coaching still—or do you mostly just do speaking?

Denise Logan

Mostly I do speaking and occasionally I still step in and work with a business owner and their advisors to help navigate the emotion. But the bulk of what I have been doing—I made that transition a while ago, partly because I recognized I could work one on one with one owner and their advisor and help them navigate the emotional obstacles. Or I could help advisors understand what they are seeing again and again and again so that they could help to recognize it and shepherd their owners through it. And some of that came because I saw the local closing ratios that were happening, and so if a deal doesn't close the likelihood of that owner being able to return to their business and like gear up again is so low and when deals don't close, the advisors start to think that it's a numbers game. You know, they'll say, well, I just need to run a whole bunch of deals. And whether they close or not doesn't matter to me. But it does matter. It matters tremendously. Most business owners intend to fund their retirement with the proceeds from the sale of their business. So if they don't sell the business, then there is no happy ever after. And for a wealth manager, for example, you can run all the Monte Carlo simulations in the world that you want. If the money doesn't pour into the pot, there is no happy ever after. So what I realized is lots of advisors will say they feel like they're part time psychologists in their work. And I'm like, 'great, let's give you more tools so you can be an even more effective person to your owners'.

Maureen Farmer

Well, the book really points to that whole discipline around the navigation, through the sale and, you know, navigating all the choppy waters of family discussions. And the issue of trust comes up a lot in the book as well, around business owners who feel that they can't trust the investment banker, that they can't trust whoever it might be. It was really an eye opening read for me because I'm not a financial professional. I'm really fascinated with investing, in mergers and acquisitions. I have a whole bunch of books back here that you can likely see on the topic, because I'm trying to learn and I'm fascinated by it. But it never occurred to me until I heard your conversation on the podcast about that very emotional journey which I happened to help some of my own clients with, but had never thought of it within the context of business owners who were selling their business or who wanted to sell their business and it just opened up a whole new perspective for me. And I think you're absolutely right. It's absolutely critical that business owners get the support that they need so that they can, you know, sail on into the horizon on that sailboat you talk about.

Denise Logan

You know, I'll just set up the context of the book for listeners. So the sellers journey is written as a business fable. It's the story of an owner one year after he sells his business and he goes on a trip across Glacier National Park with his banker, his lawyer, his wealth manager and the buyer who bought his farm. And I always say, don't worry, they all come back alive because for most people they're like, 'oh, I don't know if I'd want to travel with them'. But as they're crossing the glacier, they relate the physical obstacles they're facing to the emotional obstacles that he faced in letting go of his business. And you're right, many of the things they face are things like trust. And I certainly won't spoil the story because it's a very fun—it's a lovely story.

Maureen Farmer

It really is. I really, really enjoyed it.

Denise Logan

Thank you! And it's written in this way so that an owner can fall into the story and recognize what they're struggling with. But the truth is that any of us who are going through a transition can relate to what's happening in the book. So at one point, one of the characters before they go out on the glacier, they're required to put all of their electronics like their cell phone, their laptops, in a strong box because you can't have them out on the glacier. And one of the characters has a meltdown.

A complete meltdown because I cannot be separated from my phone. So, if we just use that, you can see the relatability of that to any of us that we're used to being called upon. We're used to having someone ask us for our opinion or advice or to being on call. And suddenly that moment when we leave our work and realize no one's calling me, you know, we see one of the characters in the book actually be like hitting refresh, refresh, refresh, refresh on his phone over and over, because he just can't believe that someone who hasn't called yet—can't we all relate to that, whether we're changing careers. Right. Often there's a non compete period where we have garden weave in between leaving one job and beginning the next. And that can be crazy making for many people because that's another moment of realizing who am I apart from my work? So the book has lots of different ideas, lots of lessons.

I love it, it was lots of fun to write.

Maureen Farmer

Oh, I could imagine that it was lovely. I really enjoyed it. And I have it right here on my desk. And so I could talk forever on these topics and maybe we will get together again and and talk about the motor home story. I'm sure others would love to hear that story, too. Yeah. So envious, in so many ways. So I guess before we sign off here today, Denise, if you wanted to let people know how they can get in touch with you and the types of projects that you like to work on and if you want to go ahead and do that, that would be great.

Denise Logan

Oh, that's wonderful. So my website is Denise Logan, dot com. Nice and easy. And the book is called The Seller's Journey. It's available on my website or it's also available in audio book or Kindle on Amazon. And typically I speak and write about these topics of succession planning, business transitions and how work, money and meaning creates a legacy. When the lockdown started last year, I was scheduled to keynote 72 conferences in 2020. So a lot of those became virtual or moved to twenty one and twenty two. Just all fun. You know, typically those talks are for trade associations. So I spoke to a large HVAC manufacturers conference to help you sort of think about leaving. Right. A dental conference. Lots of law firms and investment banks and private equity firms, wealth managers. Often I do training in-house at their firms to help the advisors understand what's going on and how they can be more present with that. But now I write a column typically twice a month or so that's always on my website. And there are always topics related to transition.

Maureen Farmer

It's just such a wonderful service that you provide and I'll be looking for you when Covid-19 is over. I'm going to come and hear you speak in person. You can take that to the bank!

Denise Logan

Wonderful, I love that. It's so nice to be with you, Maureen.

Maureen Farmer

Yes, it's been all my pleasure. And again, it's Denise Logan, dot com. And again, I'm very, very pleased to have you here today and will sign off at that!