And neither did I. And I had thought I was pretty well informed in to the careers world and in the types of roles that exist in business and family business. And this one did not come across my radar. So, that's why I was so fascinated when I was introduced to your podcast and to learn what you do.

Russ Haworth

I think that's part of the challenge for me as a practitioner as well is to make more families aware that there's dedicated support and help out there, for them, because they're collectively unique in the sense that they're having to navigate family dynamics, at the same time trying to run a business. And so having those kind of conflicting systems, if you like, can create some tensions, which is obviously what I help families with now. So yeah, I wrote the book and it never went anywhere, because I read it after I'd finished it and thought actually, this probably doesn't say anything groundbreaking and new and my mum might buy a few copies, but other than that...

Maureen Farmer

I'll take a copy!

Russ Haworth

Haha I can send you a copy.

But the interviews that I did for it, I found fascinating, and they weren't recorded in a sense that a podcast is. A lot of them were in cafes, and meeting rooms with a reasonably good microphone, but it was very sensitive. So it picked up every noise—clattering coffee cups in the background of these conversations. But it kind of gave birth to the idea of why don't I utilize the fact that I am told that I have a good sort of interview style, why not use that to try and spread the message that there is more help and support out there for family businesses and that's what gave birth to the podcast. At the same time, I started working as a consultant, as an advisor, moving away from the financial planning side and focusing more on the family dynamics, the governance structures, the kind of nuances that come from being in business with your family.

Maureen Farmer

I think it's a great service and a great comfort to a lot of people and a lot of families, I'm sure when you think about, to your point, the conflicting dynamics of running a business, and then the governance of the ownership. I want to read a quote here, despite two financial crises in a once in a century pandemic, global wealth has surged to 418.3 trillion at the end of 2020. From 117.9 trillion in 2000. And that's according to Business Insider. So, with the growth of wealth, what do you see as the biggest need of family businesses today?

Russ Haworth 

So two fold really, it's one of the questions that I tend to ask when I start working with a family is why are you in business together? Now, I'm not saying that as a challenge to say you shouldn't be. But if that hasn't been discussed, and isn't clear, then that in itself can sometimes create tensions when everything goes along smoothly, and it can be for years and years and years. And then all of a sudden, one family member or one branch of the family slightly diverges away from what's been the sort of accepted norm within the business. And that can create tensions and misunderstandings. And if they've never had that discussion of why are we doing this? What's it all for? How do we deal with transitions, etc, then it can create the tension that then spills into conflict, and then that can be damaging for not only the business, but obviously the family and the individuals involved. So I think starting with...there's the book by Simon Sinek, Start with Why. It's a little bit akin to that is understanding why it is you're in business together can often help create the path for what needs to happen in the future.

I also think attitudes are shifting around wealth as well, in terms of there's much more focus probably since the pandemic, on purpose, and what is it that we can do in order to be good citizens. I think a lot of that...it is very stereotypical to say that's been driven by the next generation. But I think there's just through the way in which the world operates through social media through the way in which we take on our news and information, there's probably more awareness at that level than perhaps the traditional media. And I think that can add to perhaps some of the disparity between generations when it comes to wealth, and what to do with it, and how to make it impactful. How to transition from one generation to the other. Is it all about the wealth? Is it more about how do I find my own voice? And how do I...you mentioned that the quest for legitimacy project, and that looks at exactly that is how do I find my own legitimacy when there's this big shadow of wealth hanging over me? And I don't think those discussions are necessarily had enough, which, again, is why I do what I do.

Maureen Farmer

That's excellent. And before we continue, I want to go back to just a few moments ago, when you talked about siblings in business together, family owners in business together, and then all of a sudden, there's an event, can you give us an example of the most typical type of event that happens that causes potential conflict in a family business?

Russ Haworth 

Sure. So, one example could be that there are siblings within the business, and siblings outside the business as an example. And they own an asset together. But some of them have management control over what happens on a day to day basis within the business. And those outside don't necessarily have that control. And therefore, if there's a decision around, do I invest in this business for the long term, you know, put a lot of money towards a particular project. Does that mean that I then can't pay dividends to my shareholders, and if those dividends are anticipated, and in some cases already been spent, then it can create that tension. Well, hang on, we're not on the same page here in terms of what we're trying to achieve with this business. Because those outside it might be looking at it and saying, well, I need the dividend income, in order to support my lifestyle, and those within it could either feel shackled by that, or will want to go down the route of investing. And it doesn't always happen...there are very harmonious families out there. But it's those kinds of challenges that often need to be discussed before they come up, so that you know what you're going to do when they come up, as opposed to reacting at that time and potentially causing some conflict.

Maureen Farmer

So you help organization or help family businesses create a governance framework and structure to deal with these types of potential conflicts before they rise.

Russ Haworth

That's right and a lot of it is about having discussions that are around how the family interact with each other, and how they interact with the business depending on where they sit in terms of either ownership or management within the business. And sometimes those can get confused. So if you if you imagine you're the managing director of the business, you may also be a wife and a mother to those that are in the business. And you might also own the business. So when you're making a decision, what hat are you wearing, when you're making that decision? Are you wearing the hat of a mother and owner or the managing director. And sometimes just understanding that you're wearing multiple hats when you're having these discussions and considerations can be a lightbulb moment. I remember, a husband and wife team that I sat down with a few years ago and explained the...it's called the three circle model, which is ownership, management and family as the three circles and they're overlapping. It's a great way to explain the complexity that exists within a family business. I explained that to a family. So a husband and wife team, and they turned to each other in laughter. So, this is why we argue so much, is because we don't know which hat we're wearing when we're talking to each other. And so creating those boundaries helps the right discussions to happen at the right time in the right place with the right people.

Maureen Farmer

Just the self awareness around that must be a huge benefit.

Russ Haworth

Yeah, a lot of people...the beauty of that model—it's a model from the late 70s out of Harvard from a guy called John Davis and Renato Tagiuri. And they were looking at the complexities of ownership and management. And then found that actually, when you add a family system into that, it becomes far more complex and kind of gave birth to the world of family business academia—is understanding that complexity. And if you consider how long family businesses have been around, particularly here in the UK, we've got hundreds of years old. And yet the research and study into the complexities of it only really started in the 70s and 80s. There's far more around it now, which is great in the same sense. It's still pretty young in that sense.

Maureen Farmer

I remember one of the podcasts I listened to...your family business podcast was an interview with the 360 year old plus bank. And they talked about the governance and the philanthropic arm of the organization. And it was absolutely fascinating to me how they structured the governance process and decision making around leadershi and succession planning. I guess on the face of it, superficially, I understood you know, what family businesses are—they're not always what you think, they're not always the mom and pop shops at the end of the street or the sole practitioners or small partnerships. These are, to your point, multi generational with so many layers of complexity.

Russ Haworth 

Yeah, I mean, if you look at some of the big examples of family businesses, Ford, you've got SC Johnson, there's some huge family businesses out there. And the one you mentioned from my podcast, the 350 year old bank, and the chap that I interviewed from there, he explains that in that family, there are 2400 potential partners in the business, basically direct descendants that could go and work in the business. There's no way practically, that you're going to be able to accommodate 2400 descendants and relatives within an organization. So what they've had to do is really think about that. And the point with things like family governance is if there's family businesses that are listening, going, well, how do we start on this, because it's not been done before, there is no governance in place, those discussions aren't happening, they are lucky in some sense, because they're possibly the first generation that are going to go through that process of understanding more about what the family sees is the vision for the business. But also that that can be quite difficult. And I don't want to say painful in the sense of, too negative connotation, but you might need to have discussions that are currently elephants in the room rather than, you know, being stuff that often comes up around the dinner table or the kitchen table. But at some point in the history of that bank, they sat down and had that discussion for the first time. And now they are 350 year old, very successful, hugely admired organization here in the UK.

Maureen Farmer

So Russ, that makes me ask this question about serving? Do you serve clients outside the UK?

Rush Haworth

Yes. So, it's been slightly trickier because of obviously the global pandemic has had some impact on travel. But what that also allowed is the use of technology. I mean, we're using technology to talk to each other now.

Maureen Farmer

Yes, you're in the UK, and I'm in Halifax, Canada.

Russ Haworth 

Absolutely, yeah. And so we're able to use that technology to bridge the fact that travel can't happen. And that's been quite advantageous, because my podcast is listened to, sort of all over the world in that sense. And so people get in touch from all over the world and say, can you help, and I'm more than happy to have conversations with people to see how I can help. And they come from South Africa, from Kenya, from Australia, from the United States, from Canada, and here in the UK. So, it's pretty cool to be able to use this sort of technology to bridge those gaps. And hopefully, when things settle down a little bit more, some more travel can be in the cards for that too.

Maureen Farmer

Absolutely. And here at Westgate, we've been doing this for 10 years, we started off as a digital and global company, back in 2011. So when the pandemic came, aside from the drop in business that most consultancy practices experienced, our business model really didn't change. So we were lucky in that way. And, you know, to your point, I think it's opened opportunities for businesses around the world to collaborate in a way that they would never have considered doing. I remember listening to another podcast, because I listen to so many of them...it was a financial services company. And they said, before the pandemic, we would never consider meeting with a client virtually over a zoom call, that would just never happen. And what they found is that relationships, not so much relationships, but that interaction and and actual transactions continued to flow and flow even better, because of just this convenience of technology being able to bring people together.

Russ Haworth 

Yeah, absolutely. I think part of it as well is that there might have been a reluctance on both sides of that relationship, because the technology was there but the sort of first and default option was, well, we have to meet face to face. And if we've got that option, we have to use it, it's probably unprofessional to say, Well, how about we have a chat over zoom rather than face to face. But when that option is removed, and that technology exists to allow us to be able to do that, it just, it then becomes a default option, which makes it far more acceptable and far easier to manage.

Maureen Farmer

And necessity is the mother of invention, as they say. You have to adapt. And that's what we've done. Yesterday, I participated virtually in an event that took place in Ottawa here, Canada. And it's something that I received an invitation to, and typically would have been an in person event, but because of COVID, they did the award ceremony virtually. And I have to say, Russ, the quality was just impeccable. And yeah, it was and I mean, you miss the audience participation. We couldn't see one another. We didn't know who else was there. But the actual quality of the production was just, you know, incredible. So I think, you know, I would prefer to be there. But given that we've got some COVID issues as well. You know, it's the second best thing.

Russ Haworth 

Yeah. And it's good that businesses and organizations have adapted to it and embraced it. And, like you say, necessity kind of breeds that into businesses. And it's great to see that some have been doing it very well.

Maureen Farmer

So, I also know that I mentioned in the introduction, that you're a member of the advisory board and faculty for the Ultra High Net Worth Institute, a US based not for profit think tank. So, I would love know a little bit more about your role as an advisor and faculty member, are you teaching through that organization?

Russ Haworth 

So, the purpose and mission of the institute is effectively to try and disseminate great forward thinking content to those that serve families that sit in that ultra high net worth bracket. So our role in getting involved and its voluntary role because we believe in the mission of what the institute is trying to achieve is to contribute to that content, contribute to the thinking so there are various roundtables where we have topics and subject matter experts come and talk to us. And then we utilize that information to have conversations about how that might shift thinking and service offerings in probably more so the wealth management side of things, but  anything that serves families have in that ultra high net worth bracket. 

Maureen Farmer

Can you give us an example of what what one of those things might be?

Russ Haworth 

So, a great example is some work done predominantly by a chap called Dr. Jim Grubman, who is fantastic for a start, but he's put some thinking into what are the needs of families in that bracket and has created a model that's called the 10 domains of family wealth. Jim and I have spoken about something called homunculus, and I don't know whether you're familiar with homunculus—if our bodies were in proportion to the way in which our brain receives messages, we would have massive heads, we'd have massive hands, big feet, and everything else would be small, because that's where our sort of receptors are in terms of the nerves in our brain. And I urge some caution in googling the homunculus. Because it is a naked figure. But in terms of the sort of homunculus of wealth...it tends to focus on the money. And what the institute is saying is that actually, there's far more complexity around families of significant wealth that are linked to lifestyle factors, like well-being that are linked to risk management, are linked to how you deal with estate planning, family dynamics, and transitions and things like that. So, they've created this model to highlight the fact that if all you're doing is talking about the money with families is you're you're probably leaving an awful lot unexplored.

Maureen Farmer

And I think that money is an outcome of success, or however you want to define it. And when we focus on the money, that commoditizes the relationship doesn't it? And doesn't really, I know, with a lot of the organizations that we work with, there's an awful lot of effort, tremendous effort put into philanthropic activities, and foundations. And I think that that is not as well known. I think that you know, high net worth families and businesses are often the subject of study because of the financial wealth, and not necessarily because of the other things that are happening inside that organization.

Russ Haworth 

Yeah, and there's some fantastic people involved in the institute, that are specialists in helping families with their philanthropic desires, and their kind of ambitions and wishes and how to have those conversations as a family, because that's a very specific nature, or a very specific subject, sorry, in terms of one member of the family, one branch of the family may want to support a particular cause. But that might rub another branch of the family the wrong way, if it's something that they don't necessarily support. And so understanding how to do it, and what you want to do with your philanthropy, having specific advisors and specific content linked to that, again, is hugely beneficial because you're being guided through that process, rather than having to learn from mistakes.

Maureen Farmer

Yeah, and if we go back to your role as a governance expert, if the family organization has a constitution, or some type of a mission statement that will guide the decision making around these types of things, I think that makes things a lot easier.

Russ Haworth 

Yeah, I agree. I would also say as well, that, for me, it's the discussions that goes into creating a document that have the real value. There are ways in which you can download a template for say, a family charter or get a template, my view is that they're not particularly valuable, because they are someone else's thoughts rather than your own.

Maureen Farmer

Oh, I agree. 100%. And going through that process is a journey and a discovery process. It's not a piece of paper. It's not, you know, a commodity, it is a very important discussion and milestone for that family. And I recall as well, just thinking about families that are, you know, if businesses that are hundreds of years old, is there a historian or some type of a documentation..I know that a lot of families now, family businesses are using technology to document...So I have a colleague of mine in California. She's a ghost writer, and she actually goes into family businesses, and she'll write a book. And some family businesses will hire her to write the book as a legacy document for the family, it's not for public consumption, it's just for the family. And then, you know, video documentaries and things like that.

Russ Haworth 

Yeah, I think they're a fantastic way to capture the essence of the family business. And I think we're in a very fortunate time, again, touching on the technology side a little bit, we're in a very fortunate time that we've got the ability to be able to record this in these ways. If you go back, even 50 years, it's tape recorders rather than, or, you know, big clunky tape video recorders. Whereas now we've got the digital capability to be able to do that, also do that remotely. So we don't have to be sat in a specific studio in order to record those. So the the ability that families now have to capture a record document and be involved in in creating some of that legacy, it's a fantastic opportunity. And not only that, it helps to create, in my view anyway, connection between the generations. Because if you're able to look back on a video of your great great grandfather, who is sat explaining, you know, the essence of what he went through to create that business or, you know, seeing a matriarch explain what it was like to push boundaries in a time where there weren't a huge number of female leaders in family businesses, then all of these connectors really inspirational ideas around creating that emotional attachment to the family business, and that kind of connection, whether you're in it or not, but just having that connection is a very valuable and precious thing.

Maureen Farmer

I can't speak for a family business, because I'm not part of a multi generational family business. But I will tell you that in the summertime, my mother passed away, somewhat suddenly, she was in her 80s. And my sister and I are constantly questioning each other about, well, when was it that Margaret died? And when did this happen? And some things are documented, but some things are just not, they're overlooked. And I really, really see the value in doing that documentation piece.

Russ Haworth 

Yeah, I agree. And that there are more and more organizations and firms and people that are helping to do that as well.

Maureen Farmer

Absolutely. So, we know the types of services that you offer your clients, and we know how you help them. When do you find that they need you most? When is it that you get the phone call, or the email or what particular event will trigger a call to Russ Haworth?

Russ Haworth 

So, for some of the clients that I'm working with, something that I've recorded on a podcast might resonate with them, and they go, actually, this is me, you're talking about, and they'll get in touch off the back of there. For others, it's if they're experiencing a pain point, and they might have tried to get some guidance or advice from their other professional advisors, their lawyers or accountants, their wealth managers. And it's not quite hitting as that's the area that needs focus, which is where the sort of family system comes into play. And it's at that point that they then reach out and go, I think you might be the person to help us. It's very important in terms of the work I do, I work with the family. So I don't work for an individual. I don't represent any individuals view, I'm there to help facilitate the discussions that need to happen in order to move you towards what a successful outcome is. And that successful outcome is defined by you. Rather than me say, while the idea is this has to be a multi generational business, and everyone has to work in it and or the opposite. It can't be a multi generational business, you have to sell it and nobody can work in it. It's not for me to say that. But it's for me to understand what the family's views are on that. And then create the frameworks and governance procedures that help to navigate that.

Maureen Farmer

That's fantastic. And the the Advanced Certificate and family business advising with a family firm Institute, I would love for you to tell us a little bit about that designation just for the benefit of the listener. It's a unique designation. And I'm sure it helps to differentiate you in the marketplace for sure.

Russ Haworth 

Yeah, so there are elements that family businesses face, that have been researched that have had academic papers written about them. Many of those academic researchers have then gone on to become practitioners. And they've been able to create a curriculum, if you like around how to operate and how to navigate some of those complexities. And my understanding around the FFI is a group of professionals got together and said, we can do a better job in serving the family businesses that we serve. Let's create this organization to help others do the same and then have been disseminating down the wisdom and knowledge that they've picked up from work with family businesses into a curriculum that you can get a designation in. So, there's the certificate level. And then there's the Advanced Certificate level. But there's also similar designations in terms of family wealth as well. So given my wealth planning and financial planning background, I've not gone down the route of the Advanced Certificate in advising on family wealth just yet. But that's something that I would be looking at exploring in the next couple of years. But it just gives you a grounding in terms of how to take the academic side into practical situations, how to approach the consultancy relationship to create a space with the family you're working with, for them to create their own solutions, rather than it being you know, me come in with a copy and paste family charter. Just to add your business name on the top and sign the bottom and off we go. It is much more about how to facilitate those conversations, looking at family dynamics. It was a really enjoyable process to go through it. A lot of it is self guided learnings, you have to be disciplined to do it. But they sort of follow it up with Capstone webinars that are with your group, that they're your cohort that are going through it at the same time. So you build relationships as well, throughout that. So anybody that is interested in that route, there's that or there's also a step qualification as well, which I don't think was around when I did the Advanced Certificate, but certainly is out there. Now, if people aren't familiar with step, it is the Society for Trust and Estate Practitioners.

Maureen Farmer

Excellent. So, we'll make sure that those resources are captured in the show notes. And just one final thought, or reflection, as you were explaining the program and the work with the clients, and that it's not a cut and paste solution. I think what I'm hearing you say is it's really all about relationships.

Russ Haworth 

Yeah, at the end of the day...when I go into speak with a family, there are challenges that they're facing that they might not even be able to talk to each other about. And they're the people that are closest to them. So being accepted into that role and that position is hugely humbling for me and a real privilege that I don't take for granted, of course. Because I'm objective, there's a saying that goes, you can't read the label of the jar you're in, right? So, I'm able to read the label and go, this is what's going on, don't worry, you know, there are solutions out there. But it can be work in order to get to those.

Maureen Farmer

So, confidential sounding board, among other things that you provide your family organizations. That's fantastic. The last question I have business wise is around...tell us about your biggest surprise. So far, what has surprised you most in your business?

Russ Haworth 

I think for me, the thing that's surprised me the most is, particularly within the family business field is everybody is so supportive. It is a relatively small, professional field in that sense. But everybody is out with the same purpose to help family businesses thrive. And that's been a very pleasant surprise. I expected that to a certain extent. But the degree to which people are willing to help them support each other is fantastic. And that's kind of echoed in the fact that, you know, I tend to send an email to people saying, Can you come on my podcast, and they just go yes, there's no kind of selling needed because the mission of it is to disseminate useful information, much in the same way yours is as well. And so it is a very supportive environment to operate within, which makes it a lot of fun, because I'm a solo practitioner, so it can be relatively lonely from a business perspective. But being able to have a peer group that I can call upon, and people who have been doing this far longer than I have as a sounding board for me as well, is hugely valuable.

Maureen Farmer

In such a niche as your own as well as mine. I think one step or one of the things that we need to do that maybe other organizations or business owners don't need to do is to educate the marketplace about what we do and I see podcasting as a tremendous opportunity to do that. And like you, we have a pretty small team, not solo anymore but I understand the the loneliness of sole practitioner-ship and the podcast has actually enabled me to reach out to people in organizations and industries that I wouldn't typically get a chance to be exposed to so the podcast has been a tremendous resource from that point of view. And like you, I have found most people to be very receptive to doing the podcast and helping people share their stories and serve as resources. And and you know, that's a tremendous asset.

Russ Haworth 

I agree. And it's something I mentioned briefly, in terms of the quest for legitimacy project that I'm working on. I've got a brilliant colleague, called Jamie Weiner, he's a psychologist out of Chicago. And through the podcast, he was introduced to me, and that was four and a half years ago. And we're now working on a global academic research project that looks at the impact on the rising generation of growing up around significance. And so we've termed it the quest for legitimacy. Because as I was saying earlier around the wealth side of it, if you've grown up in the shadow of that wealth, it can be sort of intimidating to know, well, how do I find my own legitimacy here? How do I be defined by something more than either the shadow of a giant that has gone before me or the wealth that's been created by them? And there's a fantastic book that Jamie's writing at the moment that's going to be out in June next year, called the Quest for Legitimacy that explains the path that people can follow in order to help them navigate that.

Maureen Farmer

Well, I'll look for that book, because I like to read as well. That's fantastic. And it's so fascinating to me, how the power of networking, professional networking, I mean, I was introduced to you through Denise Logan. And previously, I was introduced to her through Morris Stemp, who is a good friend of Westgate. And I just find, you know, despite the pandemic, I think that my networking skills have improved, because typically, I wouldn't be puddle jumping around the country. Most people would, we are pretty anchored here in terms of a virtual business. So the opportunity to network with with people and learn and collaborate and, you know, do projects together is just quite a tremendous source of fulfillment, for sure.

So, my last question has to do with restaurants. So, we are collecting through our blog and through our podcasts, we're collecting a list of restaurants that we're going to feature at some point in a blog article. Would you share one or two of your favorite restaurants in your particular area?

Russ Haworth 

Sure, we have a very good pub local to us, which is called the Lamb & Flag, it's a traditional pub that an open fireplace in the middle and old bricks, sort of, I guess, 16th 17th century type architecture to it. Very nice. So, that's very good. So I'm in in Taunton, in the southwest of England. So if you look at a map, we're in the area that sticks out at the bottom left of the UK, and I'm in a village just outside Taunton called Trull, which often raises an eyebrow when people go hang on, you live in a political Trull. It doesn't sound quite so picturesque as it is actually, it's a very nice place to be. So yeah, we have the the Lamb & Flag, just in the next village along which is very good. And there are some other very nice restaurants in Taunton itself. One in particular is called The Bank, which again is very nice in terms of the food that they serve and the atmosphere in there as well.

Maureen Farmer

Excellent. I can't wait to look it up. So Russ, this has been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for taking the time today. I know you're not feeling up to par today, so I appreciate your participation even more because of that. And I look forward to reconnecting with you in the new year.

Russ Haworth 

Yeah, thank you very much for having me on. It's been a real pleasure. It's often difficult being on the other end of the microphone. But you've done a fantastic job in terms of putting me at ease. So thanks.

Maureen Farmer

Oh, awesome. It's been tremendous. Thank you so much. Take care.

Russ Haworth 

Cheers!