Chaz Thorne

Chaz Thorne

Chaz is a master business strategist, best-selling author, and award-winning filmmaker.

He now owns 3 successful businesses working with business leaders as a strategic advisor and executive coach specializing in competitive strategy, facilitation, and strategic planning.

Chaz Thorne is a master business strategist, best-selling author, and award-winning filmmaker.

Chaz launched his career as a classically trained actor and singer. He then moved into writing and producing theatre. From there he produced, directed, and wrote major films that made it onto the big screen, including Just Buried.

Leveraging his successes in the business of entertainment and the arts, Chaz shifted toward aggrotech entrepreneurialism later earning his Executive MBA from Northwestern University (CANADA) and pursuing a full shift to business strategy services.

Chaz now owns 3 successful businesses working with business leaders as a strategic advisor and executive coach specializing in competitive strategy, facilitation, and strategic planning.


Find out more about what Chaz does here



Transcript

Maureen Farmer

My name is Maureen Farmer and I am the CEO and founder of West Gate Executive Branding and Career Consulting, and I have the pleasure today to have a conversation with Chaz Thorne. First of all, I just want to say how really honored I am that you've agreed to come in and have a conversation with me. Actually, you haven't come in, it's still during COVID and we're doing this through zoom. But look, I'm just really excited for you to be here today.

So Chaz has is a master strategist, best-selling author and award winning filmmaker. He has helmed multi-million-dollar companies in entertainment, tech, and aggrotech and is also co-founder of the Give Agency, a pop up event that has raised over $1.5 million for Canadian non-profits. That's awesome. As both an artist and a business leader he has a unique ability to combine creativity with tangible outcomes. Chad has an MBA of both the Kellogg School of Management and School of Business.

Chaz is a Certified Professional facilitator through the International Association of facilitators, a certified coach through Erickson International and the International Coach Federation and certified sales professional with the Canadian Professional Sales Association. And one thing that's not in your bio Chaz is that you are a graduate of the program in Montreal, the National Theatre School of Canada. And that's a pretty big deal as well. I see it's not on your bio but that's a coveted school.

Chaz Thorne

I find that when you start to do corporate work, a background like mine as varied as it is, can sometimes be seen as an asset and sometimes it can just be confusing. I'm very aware of, you know, depending on who the audience is—what I highlight of my background because it's both lengthy and varied.

Maureen Farmer

It’s very accomplished too.

Chaz Thorne

Thank you.

Maureen Farmer

Yeah, absolutely. So our call today is going to be focused around reinventing your career or career change and Chaz, when you and I first met a number of years ago you were embarking on a new chapter in your career after a very lengthy and accomplished career in filmmaking, producing, and being a director of critically acclaimed films. I remember it was such a pleasure to work with you and I'd love to catch up with you and find out what you've been doing since. So, within that context, tell me a little bit about your career so far.

Chaz Thorne

Well yeah so obviously my career began as an artist, and I trained as a classical actor and that's what I did for a living, I was an actor and I had also studied as a classical singer so I did musical theatre and film and television. That moved into writing and producing theatre, which is where sort of my first entrepreneurial ventures where I learned how to run a business began. And then that moved into making very large films—theatrical films that were released in movie theatres.

And that was the foundation of my background in business, and then around the time that you and I met, I was an aggrotech entrepreneur at that time, and we were at a point where we were sort of rapidly scaling and expecting that we would be raising investments soon. And I felt that it was important to get a formal education in business and do so quite quickly. So an executive MBA became the right choice for me at that time and so that's what I did and then after that, I've owned a few other businesses. But for the most, I now own three different companies. But the common thread between all of them is essentially that I'm a strategic advisor. And my belief is—what I found in working with business leaders for the last seven or eight years—I really wanted to be able to show up for my clients in the way that they needed. Not necessarily the way that I was trained or the way that I was most comfortable.

So, what I've focused on in all of that time, obviously in my bio, you hear all of the letters. It's a bit of alphabet soup. But that is because I genuinely believe in being able to show up as needed. And therefore, what I've done is, I've invested significant time and effort in terms of having an education and certifications around all of these different things that my clients need from me, whether it's executive coaching, to strategic strategy, which is, I really love facilitating strategic planning. It is something I hyper specialize in. And that's been the path ever since I started my formal business education 10 years ago. It’s amazing to do that and also the other reason why I continue to do it is I genuinely love to work. And I would say that as an advisor to others, you don't want to be the hammer that looks out every problem as a nail. I’ve certainly seen that in my colleagues—the solution that they present or the way that they choose to show up is based on what works for them. Not necessarily the client. That's what I've been up to last a while.

Maureen Farmer

So I'd love to post just a couple of questions around the executive coaching that you mentioned, can you give us a sense of what specific types of things you coach your executive clients on how you help them?

Chaz Thorne

In terms of executive coaching It's funny how often the same challenges come up. And they normally have to do with soft skills in managing people, leading people. And time prioritization. And then just given the type of person I am and how I work, because I believe that a leader is a whole person so don't leave who you are at the door when you arrive at work and I would argue that if I do, you are likely not showing up as an embodied leader and therefore you are not showing up for either yourself or your organization.

So it ends up, moving into a lot of talking about life, about seeing my executive client as a whole person, and very tangibly I am a very process oriented individual. And I developed a strategic planning methodology that I use called the lighthouse method, which I use in large organizations in terms of strategic planning and I also use it as a tool when I'm working with executive clients, so that they can develop a strategic plan for their lives. And some of the terminology is slightly different but for the most part, it's the same methodology and at its core, it's about developing alignment throughout your entire life just like a good strategic plan develops alignment throughout an entire organization.

Maureen Farmer

Fantastic. I absolutely love that and I've had the experience myself too where individuals will say ‘you know that's my professional life and I try not to let it spill into my personal life and I don't think that that's possible—I agree with you. I think we're holistic people, we're a whole person. And I think that the more that we have to adapt our behavior in an environment, the less aligned we are.

Chaz Thorne

For sure. We're seeing this rising demand and rightfully so…for authenticity. And you can't be authentic when you're having an actuality compensate for who you really are when you're at work. It doesn't work. Unless you have multiple personalities. You are the same person, and even more so I would argue that if you allow yourself to be the same person, you will be much more effective as a leaser as well. Because that mask that oftentimes goes on when you step through the doors of the office…I guess the main question I would ask of those that really think it is necessary…Well, tell me how putting on that mask actually serves you and tell me how it actually serves the people you serve.

Whether your clients your customers, or the people that work for you depending on where you are in the organization. And I'm not really…it may sound a little bit this way…but I'm not much of a touchy, feely person when it comes to executive coaching interestingly, I believe in results. I believe in measurables, I'm very strict about all of those things. The reason why I believe so much in showing up as your full self is because I've seen time and time again that doing so increases the value that you're able to actually bring to your company as well.

Maureen Farmer

You talk about measurables. How do you measure, you know changes in that type of behavior. What type of metrics do you use to do that?

Chaz Thorne

People really struggle with those aspects of things. I am a believer in SMART goals. So that's, Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Relevant and Time-bound, depending on who you talk to, there's slightly different variations of what those different letters stand for. But if you spend the time to think of it, you can develop those for what you may consider softer, or more emotional goals as well. And it is work. And increasingly, we operate in an increasingly competitive world. And everything is increasingly measurable. You certainly see that on the digital side.

So, you need to figure out for yourself, how you will measure your success. And sometimes it's things like you know someone may recognize for themselves that, for example they're working too much and it's leading to burnout and that becomes part of their personal strategic plan to address that. Okay, well, what can some of the measurables be, or what can some of the targets around what you will actually do, be? And that can be as simple as…well I will make sure that I take a vacation for a full week, once per quarter, for example. So it doesn't always have to be revenue based goals these days, pretty much everything in our lives are measurable. You’ve got fit-bits, calendars for this and that and timers, and all of this stuff so there's always a way. If you use your imagination, no matter what it is to somehow tie it to a metric, that's indicative of progress in that particular area.

Maureen Farmer

When you talk about the coaching piece, can you give us a sense of what a presenting problem might be? You mentioned one—burnout but are there other presenting problems that executives come to you for that might be a proxy for something else, or the proxy might be the burnout or the issue but they come to you with a presenting problem that's not directly tied.

Chaz Thorne

Well, I think the classic one in any executive coaching…colleagues, listening to this will probably chuckle because they'll recognize it is a very common one you'll hear…is “I just can't get people to do X.” 

So, the most common thing you see, and it's this isn't a criticism. It's just common, it's something we need to learn and depending on what your background is as a leader, depending on if you're old school or new school, how you were educated, how long ago you were educated…it can be this idea of, in a way, passing the buck of responsibility on to others and inevitably coming back to a process of…you're the leader here. So, how can you ensure that you've actually done everything you can to address this issue amongst your team.

So, I would say that the higher level of that is coaching towards taking more personal responsibility and I don't mean that in a sort of a lecture kind of way, because when you move towards personal responsibility, you also move towards personal empowerment. What you're saying is when you work with a client towards taking more responsibility for the challenges within their organization, or on their team, you're also showing them…no no, you’re not helpless here, when you take responsibility for it, it also means you can do something about it. And there's pretty much no problem you could be facing that someone else hasn't faced previously. If you add a little bit of imagination and you know benchmarking to the equation and you don't get stuck in the you know…’it has to be the exact same challenge or scenario.’

Maureen Farmer

Exactly and I think when you take personal responsibility for these issues I guess we'll call them, you also model good behavior for your team too I would think.

Chaz Thorne

For sure. It's funny. I suppose this is slightly off topic but one of my favorite professors in business school—a guy named Keith M. at Kellogg. Unfortunately he actually passed away not long after I graduated. But he wrote this great book on leadership called “Do Nothing” and more or less his belief around leadership is, if you're doing it right, you shouldn't be doing anything. Now that's a big flip, obviously there is lots that you are doing but it really comes down to this idea of coach don't play.

If you're in a leadership position, that should be what you're doing. And honestly you hear it time and time and time and time again from individuals you know that mat sit at a different place on the org chart, either towards the bottom or in the middle. One of the common complaints you hear frequently is that of micromanaging. That is, people that are, you are playing instead of coaching. And that's not their fault. It has a lot to do with how people are promoted and how people's careers are built, because you know the classic example is the salesperson. So, you know, your EVP of Sales moves on, and conventional wisdom, and I say that with a grain of salt…conventional wisdom says, ‘All right, well you promote a top salesperson, to be the new EVP of Sales.’ And that will tank you and your sales team every single time. Because the skills that are required to be really good at a functional thing are not the same skills that are required to lead. And this is very frequently broken in terms of how people are moved up within organizations so that individual, when under stress especially is going to revert back to what it is that made them successful and got them to this point of leadership, which is the functional skills and that will cause them to micromanage their team.

Maureen Farmer

And also adopted behavior too…if they're under pressure for a new position or new metrics or a new leadership team, that's when the adaptive behavior can pop in there as well. So, if the leader is not aligned, values-based and even skills-based and, you know, with the team, then that is when adaptive behavior comes in, which causes all kinds of trouble for everyone.

Chaz Thorne

And the very real cost to the organization is that, then you end up losing your top salesperson, and you will likely lose several other of your top salespeople because they'll hate being micromanaged. It's very classic. It's so classic that one. It boggles the mind that it's still out there.

Maureen Farmer

I know, I don't understand it. I myself work with a lot of leaders around the world. And I see it in them...that's why they're with me, because they're being micromanaged, and they're top performers, but when they leave the organization, they won't disclose that to anyone…they want to save their own reputations and don't want to be pointing fingers. You know and it's a phenomenon I see a lot and I'm seeing a lot of this in smaller organizations. Smaller organizations, you know where sometimes the CEO or the leader…whoever the title is has to get his hands or her hands dirty. They have to be in there, they have to be a player as well as a leader, because that's how they're funded, they need to get things done, they need to get things done quickly, so I would imagine how these individual leaders are coached would be different depending on the type of organization that they come from.

Chaz Thorne

I think so. Admittedly, a lot of my work has been with very large formal structures. If you are in a scrappy start-up, yes, you will absolutely lead slightly different. You need to have a much more fluid organizational structure and model, things can change so rapidly. So yes, I mean, you may lead in a slightly different way but the main thing that I see time and time again is, it's just having no plan.

And that's, that's where you also get the disconnect and where a lot of dysfunctional behaviors can come up because no one knows why they’re doing what they're doing. And again, it comes back to this idea of alignment. And so, in my work, doing strategic planning, it's always a conversation about alignment. Because if you do it right, everyone in the organization should know exactly what they're responsible for and exactly what that task…it goes all the way down to the task level…what that phone call means, what that email means and how it connects to the larger thing that organization is trying to accomplish. And, you know, a lot of the bad rep that strategic planning gets or planning in general gets is because so many of the models for doing it haven’t evolved since the 1950s. And that's just not how we work anymore. And you can do a plan in a day. It doesn't need to be…you don't need to spend half a million dollars and hire a fleet of consultants to tell you about…

Maureen Farmer

That is the way it worked way back when I was in corporate Chaz! You know, it was the most daunting and intimidating process for everyone, I remember those days very well.

Chaz Thorne

And the main thing about that is nothing gets done. You annoy your people by essentially having some outsider come along and insert themselves as an expert. Unless you've got really  bad people, which is typically not the case by the way…you are the expert in your business and you are the expert in your industry, a strategic planning process done right…the person you're working with, is an expert in strategic planning. If anything, it actually takes away from the process, if they happen to have deep expertise in your industry.

Maureen Farmer

I agree, 100%. I was listening to a podcast last week about a digital scribe who went into these large organizations and went through a process flow uncovering issues and problems that the leader, and the entire organization was facing, and they use this process to do, problem solving, but they were the experts in the process flow and uncovering the problems but they weren't an expert in the subject area. And that came out very clear…it was quite a fascinating podcast to listen to. They were consultants that were working with some of them big accounting firms serving their clients. Some very, very large…up to 700 people at one time, I could not imagine facilitating a group that big. And I know that's what you do. Right?

Chaz Thorne

Yeah. Well, it's really what that comes down to. And this is part of the discipline of being a facilitator and when you are trained in a bunch of different methodologies and you wear a bunch of different hats, you also have to be very clear with yourself and with your client which hat you're wearing at what time. So, one of the classic things about if you're doing facilitation properly, you hold the container of the process. You don't weigh in on the content. That's not your job. And that's, it's interesting. We're starting to see in more progressive organizations discussion of facilitative leadership, or discussion of, you know, also, again, engaging process experts not content experts, that's not to say, sometimes you need a content expert. If you're consistently having issues with getting shipments on time from China. Alright, hire a logistics expert that has expertise with China. But that's, that's not the kind of stuff…I don't, I personally don't get into the weeds on stuff like that. I'm working at a higher level, organizational function, and change.

Maureen Farmer

So, you mentioned something earlier on in the conversation about soft skills or at least I think you did or did I dream that? Can you give us an example of what you see as being an important soft skill to have because soft skills mean different things to different people.

Chaz Thorne

The way that I think of soft skills is all the people stuff. It’s not the building of the widget, it's not the analyzing of the numbers, it's not that aspect of whatever it is you're doing, it's the stuff that requires you to be extremely present, and flexible and open in the moment. And it's the people stuff that some people really…for good reason…some people really really struggle with.

Maureen Farmer

And just indulge me a little bit more here. I'd love to find out from you what, what would you say are the top, you know, one or two soft skills that people struggle with, or are there? Are they different for every person, or do you see a theme at all?

Chaz Thorne

I think they're very different…if you even just think about soft skills and in general, they are very much an expression of who we authentically are as a person. So therefore, what we're good at, what we're not good at…will be different with different individuals. The main soft skill that trumps all others. And…God I even hate using that word…the main soft skill that is more important than all the others (we will say that) is listening. 

And honestly, everything else is subservient to that. And it's not only listening to others, it's listening to yourself. How did I show up in that conversation? How am I, how am I feeling right now and how is that going to affect what I say to this client on my next phone call? All of that. I think that is the supreme, ultimate skill. You tie that into self-awareness. And by the way this circles back to the first thing we're talking about. You can't listen well, if you've got a mask on, or you're playing a character.

Maureen Farmer

Right. Because you're trying to catch up, you're trying to predict what you should say versus how you really feel, and by then you've lost the message or you've lost the intention.

Chaz Thorne

Yeah, it acts as this filter that by the time, whatever is coming out of your mouth reaches the other person or by the time, whatever is coming out of that other person's mouth reaches you, it's been distorted, it’s like it's been through that game of telephone. And I want to throw out a caveat here. It's not lost on me that in certain professions or in certain high-pressure situations, you will show up in a different way. And you will lead in a different way. And again, it is correct sometimes to lead as an authoritarian in a crisis. It is actually what your team wants from you. And what is appropriate.

Maureen Farmer

It is context.

Chaz Thorne

It is context. If you want rules around that, the best framework I've ever seen for that is the Cynefin framework.

Maureen Farmer

Oh do tell and do spell!

Chaz Thorne

It's actually a Welsh word. And it's spelt C-Y-N-E-F-I-N. But it's pronounced Kin-evan. It came through a Welsh management consultant. His last name is Snowden. As far as I know, no connection to the other Snowden. Famous Ed. What I like about it…like all frameworks, you can geek out on them and make them overly complicated…but really what it does when applied properly…it allows you to see what context you are presently operating in. So, if you are, if you are operating in a chaos context, for example, it is absolutely not only appropriate but required that you lead in a very strong handed way. And, you know, I can feel certain people cringing when, when that’s said, but again, as I said…I'm not…I'm all about what's going to get results, not about you know sticking to one way of thinking or one process for the sake of the process.

Your job as a leader, is to recognize when the context has shifted. A really great examples, so it's not abstract, is 911. Rudy Giuliani showed up very well in that crisis context. And he was very authoritarian, and that was what was required in him. He was significantly lauded for that. But then when he was no longer leading within a chaos context, he continued to leave that way. And that's why he lost because that was no longer appropriate. So he was leading in a context that frankly as we've certainly learned about Giuliani since…that's his default mode…command and control…he wants to lead that way. So, when the context shifted, he didn't shift with the context.

Maureen Farmer

So fascinating. I have a couple of more questions…I'm conscious of the time, I could talk forever on these topics but thinking about your career so far…given your rich and varied and very accomplished background, what would you say has surprised you the most and just have fun with the answer. There's no right or wrong answer here.

Chaz Thorne

What surprised me the most was falling in love with competitive strategy.

If you consider the fact that I trained as a classical actor and then made movies for a living and obviously was a creative professional. I wouldn't have thought that and I happened to have an incredible professor for competitive strategy. Her name is Sonia Marciano, and she taught us in  in our program and she's full time faculty I believe at NYU Stern Business School and she's an amazing professor, but whatever it was about that subject. And the way she taught it. It really made me fall in love with it and when I saw that it was a different way to express creativity and dare I say even artistry…just a different canvas…that was, that was probably the largest surprise yet, in my career…that I fell in love with this. I never would have expected it.

Maureen Farmer

So tell me a little bit about competitive strategy. I have a superficial sense of what it is but what does it do for people and how do you play in that pool?

Chaz Thorne

Well, I could give you this long answer which is what most people do or I could just tell you it's very simply, what is required to win…however you define winning, which is where it gets really interesting, because it's not depending on the organization, depending on the individual. And by way it's, it applies whether or not it's a person, it's a business, it's a non-profit…the principles all hold. So, it's first about what would you consider a win? And then what do you believe is the path to get there? And then how will you know you got there, going back to the idea of metrics again. And then potentially even having a conversation of what happens then? What do we do once we win? Which you may not know until you win but sometimes that's a conversation that needs to be had as well.

Maureen Farmer

It's fascinating. So, do you have a framework for that or somewhere where I can learn more and maybe people listening will want to learn more. I'd love to learn more.

Chaz Thorne

I don't!

Maureen Farmer

We have to hire you!

Chaz Thorne

I try not to be too much of a zealot about frameworks. This goes back to what I said about you should be flexible, you should know as many other frameworks as possible. And not be the hammer that sees every challenge as a nail. I believe the same thing when it comes to competitive strategy. There are many many really great books about it from people that have been extremely successful in this world. So, what I try and do is just keep on top of some of the older references around competitive strategy and some sort of classic thought leaders, as well as just keeping an eye out for the new ones that people talk about. And then within that what you're doing is you're treating every organization and every client with a bit of originality. Instead of just, “alright, we're just going to apply…”

Maureen Farmer

Like the hammer, like you talk about the hammer. That's really fascinating. Well, I guess the next question I have on my little list here is what might you do differently if anything?

Chaz Thorne

I'm working on delegating more. I find for those of us that play in any space whether it be a strategy or executive coaching or strategic planning, the old saying about the cobblers son has no shoes…so, I certainly have coached others towards getting better at offloading functional tasks and so on when they're in leadership and that's, that's something I'm really working on is, is letting go of things a little bit more to allow me to build more resilience and scalability, to my businesses.

Maureen Farmer

I think we all struggle with. I think everyone does.

Chaz Thorne

It's one of the reasons why executive coaches wind up talking about it so much.

Maureen Farmer

Yeah absolutely. Delegation I'd have to say is probably one of the top leadership skills that I talk to my clients about, because without that they can't build capacity on their teams, or the organization. It's a fascinating topic for sure. And you know, I was going to ask you a question about the pandemic, and how it's changing business. If you want to answer that. If not, it feels almost like overdone now. We've been talking about this for months now. But if there's something that you wanted to mention in terms of the global pandemic…maybe if it has changed the way you've done business…

Chaz Thorne

Well, there have been some very tangible ways that it's affected how I've done business. In one of my businesses, it caused us to do complete 180 and that's been amazing, that the pandemic actually forced us to build a better business and let go of a legacy piece that we should have let go. It is something that we were really good at and enjoyed doing but wasn't really right moving forward. But one thing that happens when you're in the world of strategy is, people come to you often times, looking for certainty. Of course there is no certainty. But I think that for a very long time, I've been someone that has lived this illusion of certainty. So the pandemic, what it has given me, beyond like all of the tangible stuff honestly it's boring, whatever, it’s for conversation…but what makes for good conversation is, is how has it affected you as an individual, and what it's taught me is to get much better at embracing uncertainty and finding some comfort in that because everyone just wants everything to get back to normal. It won't, there will be no normal, there's no normal to go back to. And a lot of people hate that, you know, certainly a lot of my strategic clients are like, oh, what should I do and so on…uhhh hoard cash. I don't know what to tell you.

And I guess you know again it comes back to this idea of understanding was context you are in, there are certain things from a strategic standpoint, there are certain things you can do. I've also seen clients that have stuck their head in the sand and doubled down on the same old, same old, and they will disappear. There's, there's no doubt. So, how do you embrace uncertainty, but continue to act? That the key. It's not embracing uncertainty and then

flipping out and stopping. How do you embrace uncertainty, yet still do stuff, still remain proactive, still try and make things happen. So that's what I've really earned to embrace and find some comfort in.

Maureen Farmer

I love that answer. Thank you. That was brilliant, not what I was expecting. I have to say, I embrace it.

Chaz Thorne

Well, I don't want to hit you with all the boring stuff.

Maureen Farmer

It’s been an absolute pleasure having this conversation with you I know you're a very busy person. I do have one last question, and that is what are your future business plans?

Chaz Thorne

My future business plans are…I don't know. Interestingly, my business partner and I are going to be going into a new planning exercise over the next couple of weeks. And we had to, obviously you need to do what you tell your clients to do so creating a strategic plan that we had come up with back in December. And then COVID happened. And we, we actually got extremely busy as a result of COVID. So, it actually increased the volume of our business. So we've just been very much so reacting to that and trying to stay ahead of that. But we're just about to go into another planning exercise and go “Okay, well, you know, given everything that's happened, given this state of uncertainty of the world, now, what does our plan look like moving forward.” And I'm really excited for that. I don't want to minimize how terrible COVID is or how it's had a devastating effect on so many individuals, so many companies, so many industries. And I really don't want to minimize that. But certainly, I'm very interested in going “okay well, given the state of the world, given the uncertainty that we're all grappling with, and we certainly haven't reached the bottom of how bad this is going to get, not even close…what does that mean, what does our plan look like now.” So, basically my next plan for our business is coming up with a plan.

Maureen Farmer

Well thank you for your candor on that because you know people don't want to admit that they don't know what's next.

Chaz Thorne

Well, one need only look at Bay Street and Wall Street for definitely some great examples of that.

Maureen Farmer

So look, I wish you all the best for your business planning and a final piece of advice for anyone listening who may be considering a career, a complete career change or maybe an industry change…what's one or two things that you could so to them based on your own experience.

Chaz Thorne

Take a look at the Japanese concept Ikigai and it's a Venn diagram of four different things. It's what you love to do, what you're good at doing, what you will be paid for, and what the world needs. And it's a different way…we have a tendency to get immediately tactical around thinking about career change or life change. And this is, this is a step before you get tactical. Because if within the center of that Venn diagram, in the center of that overlap of those four different things, there should be a few things in there and start from there and work from that place. Instead of just going tactically, “I need to make this much money. It needs to be in this industry or needs to focus on this skill” …or whatever, start from that place. That would be the best advice I can give someone who's contemplating something new, which obviously a lot of people are as a result of what's happening right now.

Maureen Farmer

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it is good to go down to those foundational levels because otherwise we are doomed to repeat the same mistakes we've made in the past, if we have, and maybe with our successes we are repeating…but we do have a tendency to repeat our behaviors. So taking a really good look at what we want to do through this type of a lens makes a lot of sense to me.

Well look Chaz it's been an absolute pleasure, and I thank you for your time.

Chaz Thorne

Thanks so much Maureen.

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