In episode 58 of the Get Hired Up podcast, I speak with Dawn Munroe, a human resources leader in the healthcare sector. We discuss trends in hiring new professionals, Gen Z and millennials and how to best lead this discerning cohort in a multigenerational workplace. We also do a live and unscripted demonstration of a difficult conversation that you can adapt to your own workplace.

Dawn Munroe is an experienced HR professional with in-depth knowledge of professional development, and employee relations. Dawn leads the Human Resources, Research Innovation & Discovery portfolio at NS Health. She supports the operations and collaborates with the leadership team to ensure the Innovation Hub’s vision of health and health care have the resources it requires for ongoing success. Working with Managers, Directors and Senior Leadership, Dawn provides support in human resources operations through coaching and consulting. Her aim is to continuously improve employee engagement, productivity, and organizational performance.

Dawn holds a master’s degree in adult education and Health leadership from St. Francis Xavier University in Nova Scotia Canada.

I would love to get your perspective on kind of the intergenerational aspect of work. What are you seeing?

Dawn Munroe

What am I seeing? I am seeing, you know, an influx of new grads coming in, that are excited, they're keen, but they have their own ideas of what work life balance should look like, what compensation should look like? And, you know, one of the first questions I'm getting often is, what's the, you know, ability to work in a hybrid? Or what flexibility? What vacation time do I get? What are the hours I need to work? So I'm hearing more and more like, how much autonomy can I have in this role? What you know, are the key performance indicators that I need to meet each week, maybe, but not within that time frame sort of thing of Monday to Friday, nine to five. And so it's really interesting, and then often is that the second common conversation is around compensation. But the first one that I'm getting from a lot of the new grads is, you know, where, where's the flexibility? Where's the autonomy in my role?

Maureen Farmer

I was just listening to a conference board, podcast a few days ago, we actually made reference to it. And one of the blog articles that we just published on millennials is around the Gen Z crowd. And so that particular cohort of new professionals that are coming in, from what I heard from the Conference Board is very much interested in compensation transparency.

Dawn Munroe

Absolutely. Yeah, they want to know, you know, what is the next level up? Where is the opportunity for promotion? And what does that salary range look like? I mean, it is competitive out there right now. And these young people have talent technology wise that, you know, other generations just don't have, I mean, they are smart individuals. And sometimes when I'm interviewing these new young people coming, you know, coming on, I am just blown away by their education, but their experiences as well to like, the things that they've gotten involved in, I think, you know, the days in our high school, whether, you know, you had math, maybe history, French, you know, chemistry, biology, the things that they've had opportunities, the courses, they've had opportunities to take in high school and university, just, you know, blow blow us out of the water, as far as the, the teachings that we may have had, and, you know, the limited, I guess, amount of information, they just have so much knowledge about so many things now. And I do think that our older generations are struggling sometimes with being able to work with somebody that isn't wanting to work maybe nine to five or 10 hour days, I mean, that's part of the reality as well, too, you know, my generation really has, you know, pushed us to work longer hours, you know, during COVID, 12 hour days was nothing. But, you know, this other generation coming up through there saying that, you know, working 12 hour days does really not benefit you health wise, or for your lifestyle at the end of the day.

Maureen Farmer

So, how are senior managers and executive management dealing with that reality? I mean, I'm seeing that the same as is as you are, in my business. So in in the work that I do, I am working with service providers who are contracted to my firm, they're not necessarily employees, I will not get an answer to an email or a text over the weekend, and I need to be okay with that. Whereas, you know, 10 years ago, that would be the expectation. So my question is, how are senior managers? How is how are executives adapting to that change in communication cadence with their new employees?

Dawn Munroe

And well it is a new reality. So for my generation, generation X, you know, you if I saw a message coming in from my boss today that, you know, I would not be hesitating by picking up that phone and making sure that if there's something she needed, that I was delivering, right, and it doesn't happen very often, but I would never ignore a text that would come in like that, or an email. And I think that, you know, there's so many tick tock videos and ways now that in people are addressing those conversations with managers, they're much more in tune on to how to respond when being asked to work extra. So I think it is a new reality for a lot of managers and supervisors to figure out ways to navigate those conversations where there may be sometimes they do need somebody to work a little extra or, you know, on a weekend if there's a, you know, a conference happening or something along those lines, but I think what it has done as well too, is it's made managers QUESTION Okay, do we need to people to do one position as opposed to that one person. And the workload, which is not a bad thing, either, I think is, is what is actually necessary to get the job done. How many people do we need, because we can't stretch people and expect them to work overtime all the time to get things done. So it's creating maybe new positions or new opportunities. And looking at those gaps, which can only benefit both sides.

Maureen Farmer

I wonder if there is increased productivity and engagement as a result of having more of a hyper focus on, say, the eight hours a day rather than scattered out throughout the weekend or an evening or things like that, because I do note that, you know, the individuals who I work with who might be might be Gen Z, or Millennials are, tend to be very, very focused on what they're doing. That's just been my experience anyway, very, very focused on what they're doing and able to deliver, as they have been, you know, as they're required to during that period of time. But then there's a little bit of a lull, you don't hear from them after hours or on weekends. And I guess maybe it's just getting a, it's a culture, a new way of doing things for people, your Gen X, I'm kind of on that cusp between Gen X and the Baby Boomer and the very last year. So I've seen so many changes happen. I was working with someone in Vancouver one time, and he was working across time zones. I think he is in his early 40s just turned 40 last year. And the the hours he were was expected to work were just phenomenal. Like, because of the time zones, he would have to sometimes get up at three o'clock in the morning and take a phone call from Romania, for example. Right? You know, and that's got to be difficult for organizations.

Dawn Munroe

Yeah and as we are now you know, able to work globally, those are the things I think that can you know, really impact production, or reaching milestones or goals and things like that. And I do think, you know, the technology piece of the world today helps, you know, to stay focused. And I think there's a lot of people that have said, you know, they're introverts, they like just being able to work from home staying focused, but I do really worry about that social connection as well, too. So for my team, you know, I do have different arrangements, you know, that benefit the staff to be able to have a hybrid approach, but I do ask that we all come in on Wednesdays and meet. And so that gives us an opportunity to do a check in to have some fun conversation as well to like just to get to know each other, especially for new team members. And I think I really worry about somebody new coming into an organization and not having that same kind of connection with a team. Just to get a sense of, you know, what are the rules of the road? Are we you know, where are the things that I need to focus? Or what's the culture of the of the team, those are all things that you do get as being like, front facing with a team and having those conversations as opposed to just being on a teams meeting, and it kind of being an action action meeting?

Maureen Farmer

So Dawn, tell me a little bit about your team. How big is it? What do they do? What's your role in your organization?

Dawn Munroe

Thanks for asking that, Maureen. So my title is director of human resources for research, innovation and discovery. And in the last four years, as everybody knows, with research through the pandemic, and the fact that our organization has gone through a transition, knowing that we need innovative solutions to make healthcare work in Nova Scotia. So we have a team that has been building. So recently, I've just hired four new people within our team. So there'll be a total team of nine of us soon and probably will be expanding. With that as well to over the next year or two. There's just so much being done with recruitment, with innovation with the business development side of Nova Scotia Health that the work is never ending as far as human resources and needing to support not just employees, but managers as well too. And in our new world, really.

Maureen Farmer

That's really interesting. So, how did you recruit for these four new people? I'm asking because I have been doing a little informal research and it looks as though the candidate pool for a lot of these high level you know, positions is pretty scarce. So have you had you been recruiting a long time for these people or...

Dawn Munroe

What we did you know, the standard posting of the internal and external or the organization and really did just a sweep of have we had what qualifications we were looking for I am always wanting to see I don't want a cookie cutter, I guess approach to HR to the team, I want to know I want a diverse team, I want a team that comes from different backgrounds, whether it's from, you know, the business banking world to, to a different country, I want different experiences I want people to come in, and, and teach me just as much as maybe I'll be teaching them some of the process some of the things that we consider when we're doing anything in HR, with people, culture and belonging.

Maureen Farmer

So your organization is provincial, although you have a global touchpoint across the world, you're recruiting doctors and research searchers and, and other types of specialists. So tell us a little bit about that.

Dawn Munroe

So, we have really been looking at how, you know, as an innovative strategy, how do we get health care clinicians into Nova Scotia, because we've had a lot of, you know, employees retire. And we've had a, maybe a lower number of, of nursing staff wanting to start with within nursing students wanting to start within health care. So we really looked at how do we, how do we connect with other provinces, other countries, to really encourage them to apply to work at Nova Scotia Health to work in this province, and to live in this province. So one of the newer initiatives is called the niche program. And it is working with seven countries. Currently, we're working with India and the Philippines, to bridge this gap of the RNs that are educated internationally to come in, we'll support them through some education and some other supports, to bring them into community within Nova Scotia, and get them started to work right away. So that's our goal. And we're hopefully going to see a huge impact from this over the next several years.

Maureen Farmer

That's great. So Dawn, aside from recruiting, I found out about what you do a couple of years ago, and I had really no idea, the degree to which you are engaged with a team, and what they are doing outside the province to enhance innovation to foster research. Tell us a little bit more about that. That world.

Dawn Munroe

So the world of you know, the research innovation, and you know, almost business development is really partnering with researchers to help establish them help establish maybe an idea that has kind of that incubation state, and how do we get from that where it's an idea into an actual place where it's it's a laser that can pinpoint, you know, cancer cells...

Maureen Farmer

And that is a Nova Scotia product, correct? 

Dawn Munroe

Yes. There are R&D centers...so there's the lab work and then there's kind of that business development, innovative strategy, that there's funding that supports that. But it also brings in physicians that want to work and want to work in research as well, too. So it's almost like a recruitment tool. But it also helps support the province as well to by using these new innovative tools, strategies, products, that may be one, you know, that other healthcare institutions across Canada and globally could utilize.

Maureen Farmer

So it's our own little R&D cell here in Nova Scotia. I didn't know that...I had no idea that Nova Scotia Health, and I guess, you know, I'm a non healthcare professional. So I guess that's probably appropriate that I don't know those things. But it's fascinating to me that these things are actually going on here. And you're working with organizations, such as you know, medical device organizations, and pharmaceutical companies and things like that. And you're going out to these various conferences and other trade shows to bring some of this innovation back into the province.

Dawn Munroe

Absolutely. It's almost like a marketing kind of strategy. And, you know, when we think of clinical trials within research, you know, some of those meant new medications that come from big pharma really are life sustaining or life altering medications that could potentially help somebody you know, or prevent disease down the road. And so, those wins that you hear about within research are so exciting. And I can say that the people that are working in those trials are so dedicated to finding cures for cancer or for you know, different auto immune diseases and things that really impact Nova Scotians. And so there's a committed group of researchers, physicians, and staff that really support patients, and in ways that really are not highlighted on a day to day, but have really made a huge impact for for patients and their families with the Nova Scotia.

Maureen Farmer

So what from your perspective? What would you say are some of the emerging trends as it relates to employee development and leadership development in your organization.

Dawn Munroe

So I think there's the employees that, you know, want are always striving for new information and to learn, and there's always so much to learn, and so up funding opportunities for them to continue with their education. So incentive programs and things like that, that are really valuable to help support employees to get where they need to be or where they want to be. And I think that's just an investment in their future and the organization's future. And I think for leaders as well, too, it's once again, it's it's supporting them in their leadership, which sometimes, you know, we promote and and leaders have such great experience. But one of the challenges that I see often is that they struggle sometimes with those difficult conversations and providing that feedback and, and new employees are looking for that feedback. They're expecting for somebody to say, Yeah, you're right on track, or, or no, maybe you know, you want to try to do it this way next time and things like that. So sometimes those difficult conversations, I think, are barriers to people.

Maureen Farmer

Oh, yeah. I think that's across every every profession, and every function and every industry. I see it a lot. And it's it fascinates me that. I mean, no one wants to have a conversation that feels uncomfortable. But think of the cost of not having that conversation.

Dawn Munroe

Absolutely. And I think too, you know, I try to say to people, it's better to have that conversation with first 90 days, as opposed to saying somebody nine years later, oh, by the way, yeah, you're not doing that. Right. In the last nine years, I would rather somebody you know, tell me right up front, and be very forthcoming with me on something that I have done. And you've heard me say this before, you know, always soft on the person, you know, be empathetic with, you know, how you deliver the message, but hard on the process are hard on the infant, what you want to see happen, your expectations, it's okay to have expectations, it's okay to, to deliver the message, but just always be kind in your delivery. I think that that is something that's always worked for me.

Maureen Farmer

Oh, yes, yes, indeed. And I've seen scenarios where teams have have fallen apart because of the lack of willingness to give that feedback. And you know, someone leaves as a result of that. And that's always really difficult to do for sure. So let's just say for example, let's give the listener a lesson, you give me some feedback, Dawn. So for example, let's make an example. It's my first 90 days on the job, and maybe I am not communicating effectively with the team. And I go silent, let's just say, or we could pick an example. But I go silent this is this is what happens I find a lot is that people go silent. And then rather than let people know what they're doing, they kind of go into a rabbit hole.

Dawn Munroe

Yeah, let's just say, maybe I just stopped by and I see you working. And I say, you know, do you have a few minutes number one and grab a coffee and just kind of chat and check in and, and, you know, for me, I think it would be you know, nice to have like an informal kind of touch point with somebody that may be, you know, newer to the team than make it so formal, the first meeting for sure.

Maureen Farmer

Don't ask them to the conference room, that's not a good idea!

Dawn Munroe

Let's just chat and really, you know, as a check in, and what I would probably do is maybe ask more questions than and really listen to those answers.

Maureen Farmer

So what type of questions would you ask?

Dawn Munroe

You know, so you've been on the job for a few days now or a few weeks...what are your thoughts? Tell me how you feel things are going, you know, you're getting to know people's names. And that can be you know, one of the key challenges even around here, tell me how, you know, have you gotten to know a few people? And I think just some of those simple questions asking and then and then waiting to hear responses, right and really listening. Because used to be, you know, people would say you don't leave jobs, you leave poor managers, but I don't think it's just poor managers as well. I think people leave because a team may be toxic, or maybe there's one person on that team that is causing challenges. So as a manager as a leader you want if there's a thread there, you want to be able to pull it and real really think about you know how Is your team working collaboratively cohesively? What are the things that you'd be looking for?

Maureen Farmer

So it's been 30 days on the job and my coworker...let's call her Susie...hasn't spoken to me once since we've, since I've been on the team. And I'm not really sure what that's all about. So I'm feeling a little uncomfortable with that. So I don't know if I've done something to offend her, or if there's something going on. But she won't acknowledge me when we're in the lunch room.

Dawn Munroe

Okay. Can you tell me a little bit more about that than Maureen? And, you know, do you work with her? Is it just in the lunch room? That you're, you're saying that she's not talking? Or is it? You know, when you're, you know, working in a in a boardroom together is there?

Yeah, it's the strangest thing. Yeah, she won't make eye contact with me, she won't make eye contact with me, I try to smile at her, she won't smile back. And then I noticed that oftentimes, when I send an email asking for feedback on a particular project, it's either really late or she doesn't respond at all. And if I can't get the right feedback for the project, I'm not going to be able to be as thorough as I need to be. So I'm not really sure what's going on.

Okay, absolutely. So is this something that you feel that you could approach her? Have you asked, maybe, you know, and I'm just playing a little bit of devil's advocate here, because I know, sometimes, you know, when people get really busy, they may not be looking up or thinking about how their interaction could be affecting somebody. So is this a conversation that you feel that you could have? Is it something, you know, because I think sometimes there's conflict in the workplace, and but sometimes I think that, you know, it needs a manager maybe to step in. And I'm willing to do that, and willing to support and find out, you know, maybe what the issues are here, but I just want to do kind of a check in with you and see how you feel about maybe having that conversation with her?

Maureen Farmer

Well, that's a great idea, maybe I should have a conversation with her, it's a little bit difficult, because she doesn't like to make eye contact with me. And I've not noticed it with others. So I'm, that's why I'm thinking that maybe it's specific to me, maybe it's not, maybe I need to approach her to your point, and have that conversation with her. If I do that with her, and I don't feel if she refuses or won't engage with me, I'd like to come back to you and get your get your perspective and your support.

Dawn Munroe

Absolutely. And once again, you know, conflict, you know, if you bring something forward, it gives the person the opportunity to say, I'm sorry, that was not my intention, I you know, that, that and that can kind of clear the air and instead of bringing a manager in, you know, sometimes then it feels more disciplinary. But you know, it's a good starting point. And she, you know, may just feel overwhelmed, she, you know, there may be other reasons that I'm not sure, I can't really speak for her and what she's been working on. But I will do a little bit of a check in with her in a few days, as well to just to see how her workload is going, I will give you an opportunity to have a conversation with her as well, I will not share that we've had this conversation, but I'll just do a quick check in as well with her with Suzy and, and see how she's doing. And then maybe if you could just let me know how your conversation went. And we can gauge it from there.

Maureen Farmer

That's great, Dawn, thank you. Okay, so it's as simple as that, right? It's not, it's just a matter of both people need to own that, too. So Susie needs to own it. And so do I. 

Dawn Munroe

Right. And, you know, there's there's conflict, and then there's harassment, there is, you know, disrespectful work behavior, you know, those all have their own, you know, kind of buckets of how to approach and then there's high conflict people as well, too, that are just challenging to be around, then we have a neuro diverse population as well, too. And some people, you know, struggle with some of that social interaction. And so they could be on their lunch break, and just want to have their earphones and take their time, have their lunch and then go back to work. So it's really having that opportunity to have that upfront conversation in the beginning between two co workers, and in hopes that they can resolve it.

Maureen Farmer

I agree. 100% I think this is really important to to be able to give people a sample of of what it can sound like because a lot of people say, Oh, no, I'm never having that conversation. I'll avoid that person like the plague and just never have it. And and I know myself, that some organizations are at the leadership level, and when I say leadership, I mean the board level and at the CEO level, are very reluctant to step into these types of scenarios, because it does feel very uncomfortable.

Dawn Munroe

And I have had them! I've had to go to somebody and say, Look, I'm just feeling like, we have not gotten on, you know, off to a really good start. Is there something that I've said or done? Like, it gives me the opportunity to ask that question as well. Right? Have I done something that I might not even know about? And if I have, then it gives me the opportunity to apologize, right. So we don't know what's going on in somebody else's life either. So you know, people have all kinds of different stressors going on, and how they're dealing with it can be very different. I think, you know, the pandemic has definitely shown us that I think, when, you know, years ago, mental health, you just didn't even bring it up in HR, as far as you know, something that is brought forward. And, you know, what supports can we put in place? And now today, I think it's, you know, something that we have to press pause and think, okay, this person may be having some challenges, what can we do to support them, so that they can continue to come to work and feel valued and supported?

Maureen Farmer

I was talking to someone, a team member and I are doing, we're not 100% sure how it's going to unfold. But we're doing some research in various sectors of some of the more senior level leadership. And one of the questions that we've asked is, you know, What trends are you seeing in the workplace? And what what concerns you most about the work that you're doing? And the number one answer we're getting with generations of my age, that would be the baby boom, boomers is, oh, you know, all those employees, they want everything handed to them on a silver platter, and they don't want to work for anything. They only want to work nine to five, they're so entitled, it drives me crazy. We even had one of our offices where a psychologist was brought in when some difficult news happened in the media, relating to the presidential election a number of years ago. This is what got us thinking about, okay, we need to do more research into intergenerational communications and how we do this. How do we get along? How do we, you know, provide the resources that that employees need without coddling them? Maybe? I don't know.

I think Maureen, I think you and I are on the same page. And so many things. As far as you know, we've raised our children we've had to in the workplace, you know, address issues and to kind of navigate our careers. Along the way I think communication is is key, for sure. And I think there's the resilience piece. And you and I have talked about this as well to have having that resilience and being able to say, Okay, this was a rough day, I'm going to pull up my socks, I'm going to strategize and figure out how, what supports do I need? What sports do I need for my team to push forward? And so you know, I think that resilience is key. And I do think there's maybe some lack of civility as well to today that comes into, you know, the workplace. And you we see, we've seen this in healthcare, and I think, you know, the nurses that have worked on the frontline that have really taken care of patients all through the pandemic, they have definitely felt the incivility of patients and, and families sometimes. And so that really is a piece that concerns me is how do we how do we get back to caring about each other and, and being supportive and empathetic while still building you know, that resilience as well, too? And getting things done? And getting things done? Yeah, yeah, moving the needle.

Maureen Farmer

So Dawn, coming close to the end of our time here today, I would love to ask you a couple questions. One question I always like to ask the guest is what has surprised you most in your career so far?

Dawn Munroe

For me, personally, I guess you know, that I've been able to continue in a position that I absolutely love in HR, and that the simplicity sometimes a building on those relationships that I've had over the years, has really propelled me to where I am today. And I think that just, you know, when I talk about, you know, basic respect and being kind to each other, have those key values of knowing to reach out to people that have those same values of caring and respect, have really made a difference in my career as far as when I do need somebody to help me with something I know who I can go to, I know those supports that will make things happen.

That resonates with me deeply the building relationships and what does that mean? Well, you know, building relationships that are based on trust and, and shared values, and sometimes they're not shared values, and sometimes there is diversity and sometimes there is adversity, I guess that's the word to, but to your point, maintaining respect and civility in the workplace and with our colleagues, is really in a position of leadership, I think.

Dawn Munroe

Absolutely. And I think, you know, as leaders, we need to be challenged 100% I do not want people just to say yes to me, just because they think that that's what I want to hear. I want to hear their ideas. I want to hear what their thoughts are. And I think for me, you know, is working within a research innovation discovery portfolio, it's, it's all these amazing ideas, like the people that are working in health care, that they are so committed, I think that really resonates with me as well.

Maureen Farmer

You and I are so similar. We are so similar just in terms of our perspective and optimism toward the future. I feel the very same way, I feel very optimistic about the future of career. And I think when we can help our employees and our team members and our children really understand what's important to us. And when we can find meaningful work that really is reflective of our true values. I think that's where society gets the most value. And I truly am firmly believe that I agree. So Dawn, we are collecting a list of restaurants that we publish every year around the new year, we're going to year into year three, I would love to know your favorite one or two restaurants and they don't have to be they can be anywhere. They don't have to be in your hometown. But we often ask people if if they could list a restaurant that they're familiar with.

Dawn Munroe

Oh, there was a cute little place in Dartmouth that...

Maureen Farmer

It isn't the Side Hustle is it?

Dawn Munroe

It is!

Maureen Farmer

Oh my gosh. So this is the third time this side the side hustle has been mentioned and featured on this show. No. Yes. Yes. In fact, we had a guest on last time her name is Brenda farmer. You may be familiar with her. She mentioned the side hustle and so did someone else before that. So this is this is a triple star episode. We have the same restaurant mentioned the third time!

Dawn Munroe

So, highly recommended. But if you're ever in Pictou County, and I think you and I have to had this conversation...your best bet for really good pizza is Sam's pizza.

Maureen Farmer

Sam's pizza. It's known all over the province and beyond. Yes, I've not been there yet. But I plan to be there this summer.

Dawn, thank you so much for joining me on the Get Hired Up podcast!

Dawn Munroe

Oh, thank you, Maureen. It's been such a pleasure. And I really appreciate the time you've taken with me and the questions that you've asked me today. So, I look forward to chatting further with you.

Maureen Farmer

Thank you, Dawn.