Yeah, that's absolutely heartbreaking.

Lee St. James

Technology has to be part of the solution. And I'm looking for ways and exploring how robots can help.

Maureen Farmer

So, I'm not sure what question to ask first, but I guess maybe why did you start the business? Let's go there.

Lee St. James

I was working at a tech startup in Toronto, called Orange Gate Labs. And I was sort of overseeing the design and development teams for robot apps. So we were designing robot apps for banking and automotive and sort of customer service and greeting apps. And while I was fascinated with the work I was doing, I was commuting three hours a day, my you know, missing my son's hockey games on the west side of Toronto and then worried about my parents who lived on the east side of Toronto. My father was diagnosed with a form of dementia called Lewy body.

Maureen Farmer

My father in law had that.

Lee St. James

Okay wow. On the one hand, I was pleased that he didn't have Alzheimer's, but he actually still recognized us and he knew who we were. But he was losing a lot of his functions in terms of just you know, he couldn't walk, he used to walk five kilometers a day. And then he got to the point where, you know, he, his legs would just collapse under him. So he started to withdraw. He we did finally my sisters, and I convinced my parents to move into assisted living, which was probably more of a relief to my mom than anything, she ended up hospitalized with pneumonia twice, because just the burden of caregiving became too great for her, you know, he would wake up in the middle of the night and leave the leave their home, and she would wake up and not know where he was, and he'd be gone for hours. And so the police became their best friend. So it was stressful for everybody. And I thought that getting him into assisted living would kind of relieve you know, some of the stress which it did, but I still saw the just the rapid decline. And I thought, oh, you know, there's so there just aren't enough activities for them in retirement living and I kept thinking as I was commuting back and forth on my job, robots should be able to help and I kept hoping that somebody else had solved this problem. But it turns out as I did my research, that really there aren't, you know, there aren't that many applications for this technology. And people don't really think about robots when they think of older at Do you think of kids? There's all these STEM programs out there? But but not older adults? So sure, yeah. So, you know, when my father was, in his final months, I took a sabbatical from work and, and then just decided, You know what this is, this is what I need to do, I can't, I can't just wait for somebody else to do what I have to do it. So it's been a passion project since October of 2019, when my father passed away, and now we're gaining traction, and it's taking longer than I hoped, but certainly not not longer than people told me to take. It's a bit of a futuristic model, but we're really excited to be, you know, able to talk about it and focus on it as a as a priority now.

Maureen Farmer

Well, I'm really happy to have you on the show, because I know a lot of my peers and a lot of people who listen to this podcast, have parents who are in that age bracket, where they may be in a long term care facility or are planning to, you know, eventually land there. And I also have, you know, other people in my life who are in these types of organizations. And as good as the care is, I still worry that they're lonely. And I, when I heard about Mindy, and for the listener here, and Mindy is the social robot, we're talking about here, it really brought a sense of hope to me that, that this, this solution will not only help the resident, be socially engaged, but also help the family alleviate some of the anxiety of having a family member in a in a long term care facility.

Lee St. James

Absolutely, it's about peace of mind and knowing that when you can't be there in person, you know that at least a staff have more tools, they have more capacity to provide support to the residents. And that's really what we're aiming to provide.

Maureen Farmer

I've been in hotels around the world where there have been service service robots, and I even had a cup of coffee delivered to my house by a service robot in New York City one time, and it was completely new to me. I was quite fascinated by it. But I know that social robots are different. So why don't you tell us a little bit about how different they are and how she works?

Lee St. James

Sure. I mean, I guess the the key focus of the social robots is on communication, as opposed to sort of automation or mechanical, you know, delivering things or vacuuming your carpet or whatever. So I think of some of these service robots as really automated tasks, whereas communication is a lot more complex. And, and so social robots really is, is focused focused on that aspects of, you know, sort of cognitive well being in terms of you know, you can play games, you can listen to music, you can engage in conversation, and also, you know, the robot does move, like she has arms. It has arms, I guess, I should say, and, and so, there are lots of different ways that social robot can communicate with people. But it's not a it's not autonomous. So how the robot works is it is you know, it electric, like it's battery operated it, you plug it in, charge it up, and then, you know, turn it on when you want to use it. And it needs a robot handler. So the staff at the retirement homes are could be volunteers, it could be some of the older adults who are more capable and who are tech savvy, they can be trained very easily, like 15 minutes of training can help people get people started working with Mindy.

And one of the things one of the ways that the robot is different than other forms of technology is that we name them. So I actually named Mindy using a like a baby naming books. He came up with a name of, you know, it's derived from the German for love and the Greek for honey. And, you know, the prototype that we're working with right now is it's an IPL robot that is pink and white, sort of hard plastic with a tablet on the chest. There are other colors available as well, we had a green one that we were doing a pilot test last spring, we called her minty. So so there are fun, fun ways that you can work with robots. And the one thing I would say it's really important to me, I've done a lot of research on the types of robots that are being put that are being developed and manufactured across the world. We don't manufacture the robots, I'm looking to customize robots that are already being manufactured by other people, usually for children, and customizing them with applications for that are designed for older adults and staff at recreation, retirement homes. So there's a lot of different options available out there. And the key thing I think is is that as the pace of development increases, and robots become more familiar and more applicable in these situations, the price of the robots will come down, and there'll be lots of different options. So our goal is to be sort of robot agnostic in our developing our services and our training tools. And then as you know, the standards kind of get established We'll, you know, sort of settle into a model. But you know, my vision is to really have, you know, a robot in every retirement home, you know, across the world, but, but let's start with Canada and North America. And, and, you know, I don't want to invest a lot in the hardware side of things like I don't want to get stuck with a lot of inventory. If there's, you know, a new robot that comes out that's better than the old one.

So the idea is to, to offer, you know, retirement homes to either you know, lease a robot for three months or six months at a time, and then they can upgrade if they want to, if there's a new robot that comes up, that's better or they can they don't have to use their capital budgets they can use their operating and staffing budgets for for some of the costs that would be incurred.

Maureen Farmer

And so where is Mindy right now? Is Is she currently in residence?

Lee St. James

There are many Mindy's available. Right now I have a trial going on in Ontario. And I have a couple of Mindy's that are going up to North Bay in January, so the idea is, as you know, demand rises, there are lots of options available. And it's really just, you know, right now, I'm trying to match demand to supply and yeah, I didn't realize...I do remember we spoke a couple of years ago, or maybe a year ago. And at that time, I believe there was just one set up.

So yeah, I have a robot that I've chosen as a sort of our starting model. I purchased one. And then last spring I was fortunate to receive funding from the Community Foundations of Canada, and I ended up purchasing two more robots to do the pilot study. So I did a series of pilot studies with a retirement home and a long term care facility. And then also retirement communities, which was based in Oakville, they have about 23 facilities in Ontario and Alberta, they've become sort of what I consider my founding customer. And they did a trial with me.

Maureen Farmer

So, that's wonderful. And so what feedback are you getting from the staff at the long term care facilities?

Lee St. James

They absolutely love, Mindy. So the key thing for me is that the staff are able to learn something new themselves. So you know, they, they already, most of them know how to use a smart phone or a tablet. And so, you know, using the robot isn't a big stretch for people who already know how to use an Android, you know, phone or tablet. And so basically, within 15 minutes, they're up and running, you know, and they're sort of amazed and excited at what they can offer to the residents and, and then what I'm trying to do is to build a community where they talk to each other and share ideas for how to use and what best practices. They they're discovering, as they figure out, you know, oh, this person really likes, you know, math games. Okay, great. Well, the first time that, you know, I'll tell us how the name of the of the recreation leader so Bailey, you know, she She was an amazing creative recreation leader who would look for ways to help those residents who maybe were a little more socially isolated, maybe they didn't come to the group activities. And so she would go and take Mindy and explore things that they might be interested in. And those visits really changed over the course of I think we were there, that pilot test went on for about three or four months. And as the resident, week after week, they would become more comfortable and more independent. So the first time that this one resident maybe played a math game, Bailey stayed there the whole time. And the next time, she could like, step away for a couple of minutes and go and help somebody else. And then the as the resident became more excited about using the robot she was in. One of the reports that Bailey provided me was that she's like, I'm so excited this is I've got to show my son, you know, so. So they're they they become more capable and more confident as in using the technology. And I think one of the misconceptions that people have is that, you know, older adults aren't, you know, interested in technology or aren't capable of learning new technologies. And that's totally wrong. Like, they are amazing, you know, but it's, I think the thing is not to overwhelm them with too much detail or too many capabilities all at once. Right. So it's like, managing the pace of learning, and, and giving them things that that they're truly interested in. Right. So so that's really what our goal is, when people can see the technology as a solution rather than the tool.

Maureen Farmer

I think when they see the benefit of that solution. I think that's what you know, helps motivate people to want to learn and  I agree with you. I think most people want to learn it and interact with technology when they understand what it can do for them.

Lee St. James

Yeah, it is exciting to see the engagement. When we first started our pilot studies, I was estimating that an average visit with Mindy would last about 15 minutes. But at the end of our analysis, we found that one to one visits were an average of 41 minutes long. And then the group activities were an average of 80 minutes. And I was just blown away. And what happened is that the recreation leaders to say this because we weren't allowed into the facility, so my research associate and I weren't actually allowed to observe, but we were able to they the recreation leaders either took video, or they just reported to us on a daily and weekly basis of the activities in the in the interactions. And they said that, you know, somebody might say, oh, you know, they would go in and suggest would you like to listen to a song, maybe you can play a song for you. Okay, great. We all know that music is amazing, for many reasons, not just for the cognitive stimulation, but also if you can get people to do sing alongs that helps with their lung capacity and things like that. So, so often, you know, music was was the most popular activity. But then after the song was over, then they would start a conversation like, what what can the robot do? What can Mindy do? And so then they would pick something right? Oh, well, would you like to do a word choice game? Would you like to do a math game? Would you like to, you know, do a some light exercises, right? And then that would sort of like, and what else? And what else? So they kept it. It was like, as they discover, you know, these opportunities, then that's why the visits went on for you know, 40 minutes on average. So it was it was quite remarkable. And I think one of the other statistics that is exciting to hear is that 96% of residents when they were first met Mindy, and were asked if they wanted to see her again, they said yes. And I was not expecting that high of an acceptance rate, I really did think that there would be more hesitancy. But people really, I mean, I think the fact that Mindy's cute, she's clearly a robot, it's not kind of those creepy robots that look to human like, yeah, and it's not like, you know, like, some of the Boston Dynamics dogs and stuff really, highly capable and mechanical, but a little creepy. And so I think the fact that I've, you know, chosen a robot form factor that's it's friendly, non threatening. It's really like a visit from a grandchild. It makes those visits all the more powerful and engaging.

Maureen Farmer

Yes, because she's short, she kind of reminds me of the C3PO on that show...

Lee St. James

The Star Wars series?

Maureen Farmer

Yeah, very cute and non threatening, and to your point, not creepy. What range of activities can she do for people? I know, you mentioned word games and math games and music. What else does she do?

Lee St. James

Well, I think it's important to understand the sort of the the basic technology, the core technologies, let me tell you that it's an Android tablet on the chest, connected to a robot operating system. So the the robot has a camera in the eye, it's got motors for so its head can move, its arms can move, it does have hands, but they don't like you can't shake the hand because that would make it like a $25,000 robot. So there are more than $200,000 Maybe. So the hands are present. And they they it looks like they're clapping, but they're not, you know, they don't have to make a clapping sound. The robot also has sensors on it so you can like tickle it sides, you can pat it on the head. And it'll say things like, Oh, your hands are very warm today. Or, you know, you can program it to say different things. But if you pat it twice on the head, it'll say I need a rest and it'll turn off and then you can turn it you know, patted on the head again and say I'm ready to work. So it's about 40 inches high 28 pounds, very easy to maneuver. And it's not just the robot itself, but also you can there's an application I remoter is the name that avatar mind is using and so avatar mind or sorry, the eye remoter app is used on a separate tablet. So I provide when I offer a robot to a facility, I also deliver it with a tablet. And that tablet runs, you know, a few, a few simple apps, but the key the key challenge is to connect the tablet and the robot to the same Wi Fi and that's honestly the hardest part of implementing the robot as soon as that that connection is established, then, you know, the robot handler could be standing 10 or 15 feet away from the robot and have you know the Mindy using text to speech you could say you know Hi, my name is Mindy, what's your name? You know, would you like to listen to a song are so there are things that the robot can it can look like? It's sort of independent, but truly it's being managed for now. I mean, I think that the technology will improve over time and there will be some basic conversation. But the goal is not to have, you know, you know, an army of robots running around, you know, doing things without human intervention, the goal is really just to have the robots be managed in a way that helps the staff and the residents, you know, be more connected and not just with each other, but also to other people. Right? So what you find is that when people have success with technology like this, they then share it, right. So there's like, Oh, I was, you know, I, you know, you want to play a card game, and you want to do different things, they talk to each other, because Mindy makes it easier for them to to make those connections.

Maureen Farmer

It's a true gift for everyone, really, and not just for humans, but also for I'm sure the business of the facility as well. I mean, if Mindy is able to work with the handler and create independence for the caregiver, or, you know, engage them in conversation and things like that, then I'm assuming that the facility is able to benefit from that.

Lee St. James

Oh, definitely. I mean, you know, the key. So I mean, if you think about most retirement homes, these days, the biggest challenge that they have, that I hear on a regular basis is around staff recruiting, training and retention. So they are, you know, and I mean, I understand that, yeah, if they could pay, you know, their staff, you know, 50% More than that, they may not have the same issues, but obviously, they're the app to, you know, be operating, whether they're for profit or not for profit, the challenge is, you know, they're still there, that, that there's a lot of tough work to be done. And what the robots provide is a little bit of excitement and fun and, and skill development for those stuff. So it you know, I do think that, that they see the robots as an opportunity to be a more attractive place to work, and also a more attractive place to live. So, by developing reputation as being innovative, caring, and fun, those retirement homes can increase staff morale, improve staff satisfaction, they're offering additional training, even though it's through us, like it's still something that we would, you know, we consider ourselves to be strategic alliances or strategic partners to those retirement homes and offering you know, regular training updates to the to the robots and activities, and then the residents had families are also, you know, concerned or would be interested in improving their satisfaction levels, right. So, the retirement homes benefit when the family members are satisfied with residents are happier right now. And that increases their occupancy rates. So, you know, that's to me what, you know, when I hear you know, comments, like, I've got to tell my son about this, those are the types of you know, experiences that retirement homeless, you know, are thrilled to hear that they're offering something that is so exciting that the the residents want to share it. And the other thing is that people want to take pictures with Mindy, right? So it's not like, you know, I've never had anybody asked me, Can I take a picture of you with your phone or your tablet, but everybody wants to have their picture taken with Mindy, you know, and ever take Mindy's picture and and share it so that humanoid excitement you know, the the excitement of a humanoid robot is really different people literally come across, I'm going to have Mindy out in the field, people come up to us say, what's that? Can I take a picture? And it's like, I mean, I guess you know, five years from now, they probably won't be as mesmerized, because it'll be hopefully more common. But for right now, at least, it's very innovative and exciting experience.

Maureen Farmer

Yeah, no kidding. So we we know the benefits of Mindy for the facility and for the caregivers, families and the residents. Tell me a little bit about your journey as an inventor. I'm really curious to learn about how your journey so far.

Lee St. James

Oh, my goodness, well, it's not a straight line journey. That's for sure. I would say that. You know, I'm somebody that is curious. So I think that that helps is entrepreneur or inventor, you have to be curious and, you know, do some research to figure out what other people are doing and see if there are ways to collaborate or learn from them. I definitely don't like sort of reinventing the wheel. So I've done a lot of research. I have a database of sort of the robot ecosystem. And there's a lot of change in the industry. And there's a lot of work being done on the sort of the mechanical side, as we talked about earlier in terms of the service robots, but not so much in terms of the social robots. In academia. There are, you know, probably 20 years of studies have been done about the benefits of social robots, you know, starting with sort of the animal or pet type robotic, you know, even Furby I would consider as a precursor to the current social robot. So the Furby that sold like over 40 million, you know, in the, I think it was the 90s. It takes time for ideas to sort of gel and come together.

And so, for me, it's just I've probably since my grandmother went into a nursing home, and that would have been back in the late 80s or early 90s, that I had an interest in retirement living, and how can we make it better. And then when my father went through his personal experience, I think it just became, you know, instead of just kind of an interest in curious and then it became sort of more of a passion, I need to do something. So I can't just wait for somebody else to solve this problem, I have to sort of take a step. So I think that many of us have those moments where it kind of goes from being like, a, you know, oh, that's an interesting idea to like, oh, my gosh, what can I do to, you know, a different thing. So, yeah, so that, for me happened in, you know, 2018 and 2019. And then we were just getting ready, I joined a regional innovation center. So Haltech  was the one that I joined first, and it didn't realize that there were all these resources available. So there are lots of government resources available to us as entrepreneurs that, you know, are a real supporter and advocate for people finding those those resources. And, and then, you know, applying for for grants. So the Community Foundation grant really shifted the trajectory of the business.

So, I've been bootstrapping this and making this sort of, it was a part time gig, and then, you know, really became full time this year, where I just realized that, if I don't do this, I will regret it. And that's, that's the shift for me. So I kept thinking, I should just get a job, I should, you know, just, you know, make make money, and, but I just keep coming back to you know, what, nobody, nobody's doing this in a way that I think is really gonna solve the problem. And I know, I can't solve it on my own. So my big priority right now is to grow a team of people who are really, you know, share the vision and really have have things to contribute to make it a reality. You know, the adventure is just beginning, I think that the key thing for me is to just be patient and not try to force an outcome. We were starting a pilot study in March of 2020, when COVID hit and we were deemed non essential visitors and had to, you know, step back. And so then it's just like, okay, so what else can I do? And it was just network network network and started a work study project at Sheridan College. I had initially approached the elder research center there, and then they suggested maybe the game design faculty could help. And so you know, it's just like, it's like, as they said, it's not a linear journey. It's a journey. opportunities present themselves, and you say yes or no, and then you, you know, move forward. And, and so, you know, with Haltech, I mean, I just participated in their high five pitch competition on November 25. And our company was selected as the People's Choice winner. So it's very exciting!

Maureen Farmer

Yeah, I saw that on LinkedIn and posted about it, it was fantastic. And so I guess that kind of leads into the next question is, what do you have left to do?

Lee St. James

I really do feel like I'm just beginning. So it's an interesting question. But I think, you know, if I were to say the top a top priority for me now is building a team and getting some investment funding either from angel investors or I'm not sure how, you know exactly where grant funding possibly, but I know that, you know, I mean, I've been doing this as a passion project, it's been kind of a breakeven or, or sort of last year, you know, involvement for me. And, you know, I still have, I have a 14 year old son that I need to help him through school and all that sort of stuff. So I do need to start making some money on this. And, and I, you know, I mean, I have, you know, an MBA from INSEAD, as you mentioned at the beginning of the story. So I have a global network of amazing people to connect with. And I have, you know, over 25 years of work network as well, and I'm starting to reach out to them now that we've got the supply chain organized, they know, you know, there's a couple of new robots coming out in the first quarter of 2022 that I'm really excited about and you know, to be able to start really marketing and selling this and making sure that retirement homes know that this is available, like we're ready, and I haven't really done any active marketing or selling yet and that's really the next step. But you know, you need money and you need resources, a team of people to act yes, if there's delivery, you don't want to set up expectations for them. 

Maureen Farmer

If there's no cash, there's no cause! Yeah, that's fantastic. So, I guess The second last question I have on my list here is where do you see Mindy in this time? In two years time? Where do you see her?

Lee St. James

Well, honestly, that depends on how many people I can bring on board. Because, you know, part of me, I'm living out in Regina right now, I want to bring Mindy, you know, out to Western Canada, so I've got some experience in Ontario now, but not, I can't even logistically manage that. So I need to find, you know, an operations manager for Ontario, and then across Canada, and then into the US. So the US is an obvious market, there's, you know, 49,000 retirement homes in the US, you know, compared to 4000, in Canada, so there's, you know, a lot of opportunity, it's a very fragmented market, there are not a lot of, you know, sort of big chains, although, you know, you may think that there are big changes based on the marketing, that's that you see, but when I look at the market intelligence reports, it's really, there's just so much opportunity, and it's just trying to, you know, get those systems in place, so that we can do it efficiently. But also building a team to make it a reality. And then, you know, the UK and Australia would be the next markets, just in terms of, you know, English speaking, which is, even though I did go to school in France, I'm really not fully bilingual. So I don't feel comfortable in French, doing business. But again, it could be, you know, business partner, so I do see both expanding to retirement homes would be within sort of a two year timeframe. And then I, you know, over a five to 10 year timeframe, I think that the price of the robots will come down, the size of the robots will come down, I think that I would envision that, you know, I could see a time, you know, if you think about what they're doing with Amazon, the echo show, and Amazon has just launched their astral robot, you know, they're not, they're not the ideal platform, but I can see that private homes and individuals aging at home could benefit from having some social robots designed for in home use. So, I think that that's the next sort of frontier, that if people can get used to how robots could be useful to them, when they're in their 70s, maybe, then by the time they're in their 80s, and they're going into assisted living, then, you know, more, you know, bigger robot could be more acceptable, even, you know, faster than than it is now. So that's kind of the the roadmap that I see before us, I think that you know, are certainly I see a robot and every retirement home, they don't have one, I think that would be a mistake. So I'm hoping that I can align their interests with mine. And we'll see from there. 

Maureen Farmer

I listened to a lot of podcasts, a lot of podcasts. And so I was listening to one and I'm going to try to remember which one it was and it was a commercial real estate investment podcast. And the managing director of the fund was talking about the investment that they're making, especially since COVID, in assisted living homes in the United States. And he talked very deliberately about how they were designing these homes and making them as accessible and as responsive as possible because during the initiation of COVID in March, April, the spring of 2020, a lot of nursing homes and retirement homes were victims of the virus by virtue of the design of the buildings. And so this person was talking about a new approach, and that the return on investment for this particular asset class was exponential, because of the way that they were designing these homes. And so I'm thinking that may, I'll look it up and see if I can remember which one it was and let you know, because that could be another way to introduce the the technology into those systems.

Lee St. James

Yeah, I think one of the other aspects of the pandemic and why it had such a profound impact was on the staffing model, just that there were so many PSWs going into these retirement homes, and in order for them to make a living there, they had multiple jobs and going into multiple facilities. And that, you know, is, you know, hopefully, that's no longer the model going forward. And, you know, I think that, from my perspective, whether, you know, the facility is has, you know, 150 residents or 15 residents, you know, a robot can add value, the economics of it, I think are easier if you have that 150 And you've got, you know, staffing for three, maybe, you know, you have a budget for three recreation staff, but you can't keep them on, you know, they're constantly turning over, okay, well, if you added a robot, then maybe you wouldn't have the turnover and that you could offer increased Reno recreation activity. So that's, to me, it's, I'm starting with the higher end retirement homes and that, you know, fundamentally the larger ones, because I think that they, they can see the return on investment very quickly, then, as the price is robust, comes down, then the, I think that the smaller facilities and the and even, you know, independent homes will be able to, to justify the expense, but it's I think it's a little bit harder, you know, to get the wedge in the door, if you're, you know, you know, going on a shoestring budget, and, you know, trying to figure out, you know, where you can keep your expenses controlled. I you know, I just I don't know, how they make those decisions, and I'm really hoping that I can find ways to make it, you know, affordable and accessible to everyone.

Maureen Farmer

Well, there's benefits to every party so that's great. Well, this has been a tremendous conversation. Lee, I'm really happy that you were able to join me today. And before we sign off on the call, do you want to let the listeners hear know how they can get in touch with you?

Lee St. James

Of course, yes, please visit socialrobots.ca. That's our website, my email is lee at social robots.ca. And we also are on Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. And I look forward to to hearing from anybody who's interested in working with us joining the team or having a visit with Mindy and look forward to solving some social isolation for older adults and bringing some joy to those retirement homes.

Maureen Farmer

I do have one last question for you that I asked everyone. When I remember...what are your favorite restaurants and where are they?

Lee St. James

Well, we just moved to St. Catharines, Ontario this past summer and my favorite restaurant there is Joe's Feta Greek Village amazing Greek food. And we also are renting a place out in Regina, my son just started school out here and wants to be nearby with his dog. So my favorite restaurant here is a delightful a little place called Crave and it is right in downtown Regina.

Maureen Farmer

Excellent! Places for us to visit when we're in St. Catharines and in Regina. Thank you so much Lee.

Lee St. James

Thank you for having me!