Welcome everybody, to the Get Hired Up podcast. My name is Maddie shears. I am the producer of the Get Hired Up podcast. If you're new here you will be hearing from Maureen Farmer who is typically the host of the podcast but today she is going to be the guest and I have the privilege of interviewing her. A little bit about Maureen: Maureen Farmer is CEO and founder of WestGate Executive Branding and Career Consulting. She leads a successful career development and executive leadership optimization firm with a major emphasis on executive branding, which is a lot of the discussion that we have here on the Get Hired Up podcast. Since 2011, she has proven her exceptional coaching skills, branding, awareness and consistent ability to innovate executive leadership optimization strategies, through satisfied clients and fast expansion of their professional network. She has contributed two articles for Fem Founder, Glassdoor, and Society of Human Resources Professionals, and has earned the 2021 Career Leader of the Year award with Career Professionals of Canada and the 2022 Career Innovator Award with Career Directors International. Welcome to the podcast as a guest, Maureen!

Maureen Farmer

Well, thank you for hosting me, Maddie.

Maddie Shears

Very excited.

Maureen Farmer

It's fun to be on the other side of the mic, as they say.

Maddie Shears

Yes, yes. So it's a fun episode for Maureen and I because as the producer, I am generally in contact and in discussion with our guests. And then obviously, of course in discussion with Maureen and then I get to edit it and make sure it's ready to go. So this is a fun dynamic for us for our 60th episode. And today, we have a really interesting topic, we're going to be discussing the high employee turnover rate in companies amidst a pretty volatile economic climate right now. And you know, the pending recession that that sort of staring everybody in the face right now. So I'm really excited for you all to hear Maureen's perspectives on this, I think that she has been hearing a lot from her community, from people that are looking to leave, but of course, are a little bit afraid of what that might look like, given the climate of the economy today. So without further ado, Maureen, I'd love to hear a little bit more about your thoughts on this topic.

Maureen Farmer

Thank you, Maddie, I am very passionate about this topic. We've talked about it a lot. Employer Branding is a very, very near and dear nerrit, near and dear to my heart employee engagement is a cornerstone of everything that I believe in. And because I want everyone to have work that aligns with their values, and that is meaningful to them. Having said that, the realities are pretty stark, and we're quoting a Gallup study that was done in 2017. And in the article, it's quoted that there was 26.3% overall turnover in the United States based on the Bureau of Labor Statistics. And if you're listening from another country, including Canada, our country, I think it's a proxy for you know, a lot of the first world countries and our perspective, and our thesis is that if we can increase employee engagement, we can have a very positive impact on the economic climate of our economy. Having said that, I realized that is somewhat Pollyanna, there's never a perfect workplace. And there's never a perfect job. But if we can collectively work together to engage our people in a way that is meaningful to both the organization and to the workforce, there's going to be a huge value there. And I think you have a stat over on your desk, Matty, from the Gallup organization that talks about 20 in 2023, the percentage of people who are thinking of leaving maybe you can talk a little bit about that stat.

Maddie Shears

Yeah, for sure. So as Maureen said, this stat is from Gallup, and the percentage associated with intent to leave from a study that they conducted is 49%. And this study is from 2023. And I also on the same article, they talk about the four most common themes for leaving a job in 2022. And those common themes include engagement and culture. So you know, the workplace culture, how they're treated at work, insufficient training, poor communication, those kinds of things. well being and work life balance. Obviously, we've seen quite a shift since the pandemic in terms of what working looks like whether it's from home from an office, it's been very, very beneficial for a lot of people it's been able to cut their commute down to zero. And studies have proven also that this has been it has created an increase in productivity. So that is another one of the main themes pay and benefits, of course, is always a concern. And then managers and leaders, so those who are leading these companies, I think everybody can probably relate to working under a manager or a leader that is not in line with their values. And it can have a huge impact on whether or not you know, you see yourself there in the future. So those are just a couple of statistics that we wanted to share with you guys ahead of our conversation

Maureen Farmer

According to the Gallup article from 2017, a 100-person organization that provides an average salary of $50,000 could have turnover and replacement costs of approximately 660,000 to $2.6 million per year. And I would say that $50,000 would be an entry level salary, you can only imagine what a leadership salary would incur in terms of replacement costs. And so today, we're going to talk about both sides, we're going to talk about planning to leave. And we're also going to talk about keeping your people engaged, it's two sides of the coin. And it's two sides that we both work with quite closely. And in my community, I'm hearing a lot right now, where senior leaders and that's who we work with, but that's a proxy across the different levels. But we're talking to a lot of people who are seeking a career transition, or they're navigating some some tricky, sticky internal issues, with the board, with investors, with shareholders and so forth. I would like to say that this is our perspective on the topic. This is only one perspective. And it's not this is not legal advice. And this is not career advice. This is actual, some examples are going to do an exercise and helping you make decisions for your career. And again, just one perspective on this really interesting topic. So on the on the individual side, where we have CEO candidates and careerists, people who are thoughtfully planning their career, they struggle with decisions around when I leave, where do I go? And how do I how do I choose that that next path. So we're going to talk a little bit today about positions to target at the functional level, and also industries, how to discern an industry change, if that is something that is of interest to you. Oftentimes, people say I could do anything, and I enjoy so many different things that I've done throughout my career. And I don't know how to choose Next, I know I need to leave my organization or I am going to leave my organization within the next you know, six to 18 months, I need an exit strategy. And I need to know where I'm going. My position is that if you can stay where you are, you know, long enough to plan a thoughtful exit strategy. I think that's a really wise choice. I think running from a job you don't like to another job job that may be uncertain can be a little bit tricky. So we want to really think about where do we go next? How would you go about doing that?

Maddie Shears

I'm a very visual person. So, I like to look at my options and use a tool that is a visual tool in sort of deciphering what, you know, what do I want to do next? What do I absolutely know that I love from my previous jobs? What components of the workplace have I always really enjoyed and felt were aligned with my values? And then also kind of look at, you know, like, what is missing? Or, you know, did I feel bored in this role? And why was that? Was there enough professional development for me? Could I lead a bigger team than what I'm used to. So just really taking, you know, a deeper dive and writing it out and making some space in my day to really evaluate that I believe you have a tool that sort of fits that exact description.

Maureen Farmer

Yes, it's a T chart exercise. And so don't do this. If you're driving, obviously, but find a quiet spot. And maybe you want to bookmark this episode for a later listen to listen to it again. And then you can do this exercise in your, in your cottage or in your den or in your office. So this is the exercise, take out a piece of paper, and a pen or a pencil. And you're going to draw a T chart on the piece of paper. So great big T across the top and down. And what we're going to do is we're going to do an inventory of our entire career in this way. Think about the jobs you loved. And it doesn't matter whether they were paid or volunteer, maybe they were a high school position. Whatever that activity was throughout your entire career. I want you to write down on the left side of the teacher all of the situations and examples of work that you did that you absolute What we loved, maybe it was a, an acquisition that you did, maybe it was a reorganization that you did. Maybe it was a product launch that you did. Maybe it was a volunteer activity that you did with your team. It could be all of those things, write those down on the left hand side of the T chart, and take your time, put as much detail in there, as you can imagine that as you can think of think about all of the times you were given accolades and attaboys, for things that you did really, really well, and you couldn't wait to get to work for this particular topic or this particular project. And I can think of a few of those myself over the years, and how much I enjoyed working on a particular project back in corporate, and the people I was working with, and, and, and how engaged I felt at that time. So there may be, you know, 20 items on your your T chart, or maybe 50, there may be 10. But write those down.

And then we're going to do the opposite of that on the right hand side of the T chart we're going to imagine, or remember all of the activities that we've done over our career so far, that were not as engaging that we didn't like it could be anything, it could be a toxic relationship with a coworker, it could be a toxic boss, and hopefully you didn't have those experiences. But those could be two, it could be a long commute, maybe you were traveling two and a half hours each way to work. Maybe it was the degree of travel that you were doing, you were traveling 70% of the time, and we're getting sick, because of all of the airport travel, it could be you know, you were really good at doing, let's say forecasting, and but you didn't like doing that type of work. So all of the things both in volunteer and in your paid career of the things that you were less happy about. And they could be in the same job. Because of course, you know, every job has its pluses and minuses, write them all down on the right hand side.

So when you've done that, I want you to go back and have a look at both sides and start to do an analysis of any themes that you're seeing. So are the activities that you've written down on the left hand side of the T chart? Are they people focused? Or are they project focused? Or are they topic focused? For me, I was most engaged when I was in corporate with the people that I enjoyed working with the topic was less important to me than the people I was working with. The engagement was really important to me feeling part of a team, supporting a team imagining ways I could support the team. And the topic was secondary to me.

Maddie Shears

Yeah, that's super interesting. I also have a little side story I have a close friend of mine has worked in human resources for probably 15 to 20 years now. And she she works at the executive level now. And we were having a conversation about just careers and like what were you know, some of your most favorite jobs with what companies and she told me that even though she's worked with some really incredible companies in her career, and she does love the work that she does, today, her favorite job ever that she's ever done, it sticks in her mind that way is a barista at a little coffee shop. And she's like I to this day, like I you know, I'm in charge of these big budgets, and I get to have these really, really interesting conversations with people. I get to help people climatized to new to new positions, and I love all of that work. But there was just something about that job that I absolutely loved. And I felt very at peace. And there was a little bit of a challenge in the hustle and bustle of it all. But I'm a huge coffee lover. I loved my team. We all kind of chimed in on different marketing strategies. And so I just thought that that was interesting. And that's why this activity can be really, really useful is it might be the job that you don't think like it might not be the biggest title you've had or the most money you've made, you know?

Maureen Farmer

Let's just for a moment...let's do an analysis of that role. So what type of capabilities are required in a barista in a really busy environment?

Maddie Shears

Definitely time management, people skills...

Maureen Farmer

Leadership and the ability to think on your feet. Multitasking. Crisis Management. Because as we all I remember, you know, last year when the internet went down restaurants, and that this was a national event, it just didn't happen in one place. As you recall, last summer, our national grid went down, our telecommunications grid went down and one of our carriers completely disappeared and people were going from coffee shop to coffee shop looking for looking for Wi Fi so that they could continue their work. So there's kind of an element of crisis management there. And I think if you look at the skills that are required for those types of jobs, what comes to me, to my mind anywhere are things like public release shins things like, you know, maybe law enforcement. Because these are all jobs where you have to think on your feet, you have to be very, very responsive. It's a constant gogogo, you're constantly responding to stimuli in your environment. And while you know each person is in, you know, is unique, if you think about a barista, and what's involved in that, it can up those types of not so much necessarily capabilities from a hard skills point of view, but from a soft skills point of view, kind of transcend multiple, multiple professions. And so I think of someone an HR role, although it is team focus, focusing on budgets and policy, because there's a lot of policy in HR, I know that because I worked in HR, a number of years ago, I could see where our really strong people person might struggle or feel less fulfilled in that environment.

And here's another interesting phenomenon and observation that I've made over the past 12 years of doing this work in the career navigator program is that many professionals will leave a profession because they have a disagreement, or a misalignment with the boss, and they'll completely leave the entire industry. And I think people misunderstand or miss I don't know where that comes from. But you can imagine the huge disruption that it would require to leave from let's say, healthcare to financial, FinTech, for example. Right? You know, that would take a lot of time and effort and energy to change industries. If you are experiencing a conflict in your current role, perhaps it's with your, with somebody on your team, or somebody you report to maybe it's not necessarily the company. Yeah, so so really understand what what makes you happy, and what fulfills you, and then make the decision. That's what I would recommend doing.

And while we're on the topic of of industries and industry change, I'll give you an example. I worked with this very successful young men and another country, outside of Canada in the US, and he was in the financial services world to work for company A for 10 years, and then left company A and went to Company B. And these are very well known financial institutions. And he said to me, and I was so happy to hear this, he said, I am so glad I didn't leave the industry. He said Company A was a dog, a dog company, and was very, very competitive. And he said, When I left a and went to B, I discovered that B was a really high respectful environment, high respect, high engagement. And he said, I almost left the financial services industry, because I thought all financial services industry or companies were like that. So you know, do an assessment of your industry, do an assessment of your organization before you make a decision to leave. And getting back to what I was just about to say about changing industries, people will say, you know, I am really interested in changing industries, and here is the proviso that I give when considering to change industries is that yes, you can certainly change industries, it will take longer, and there are a number of reasons for that. So if you are on Venus, and the job you want is in a different industry on Mars, it's going to take a long time to get from Venus to Mars. So instead, an option is to identify industry adjacencies, if you really want to get out of an industry, maybe the industry is declining. Maybe you know, maybe it's manufacturing, industrial manufacturing, which is is declining, you may want to get out of that industry, that's a certainly a valid reason to leave the industry, why not think about going to an industry adjacency where you where your centers of influence are. So for example, maybe it is a supplier, maybe it's a customer that you target, obviously you would know your suppliers and know your customers.

You must be mindful of any restrictive covenants or non compete clauses in your employment contract that may preclude you from joining certain types of companies. So make sure you consult with an attorney if necessary, if you're not sure. And being aware of that before you start that exit strategy, but adjacencies can be very, very effective.

Maddie Shears

Yep. It's very important to know.

Maureen Farmer

And a lot of people will say, Well, I'm not sure what what job titles to to target because I'm currently the CEO of a $200 million company and I'd like to go to a larger company. Well, it is likely that a CEO role in a $1 billion company may not be immediately achievable. It may be that you We'll be targeting a divisional President role in that company. How do you know? Well, this is going to sound very obvious and also very boring. Many people will think that this is a very boring exercise, study the job descriptions and performance profiles of leaders who are in the position that you want to be in, in your next role. Nice. Yeah, this is the best proxy initially anyway, to determine what types of job titles to target. So the CEO in a small company may equate to a divisional president in another bigger organization. So when you look at the job descriptions, this is how you can do the evaluation, go through each competency statement, and assign a numerical value to it. So zero, obviously being low 10 being high, how would you rate yourself according to your competency level for each of the competency statements on the job description, nice. That should give you a sense of where you fall and where you made a shift where you may need to shore up in terms of training or professional development or, you know, whatever it might be. And then finally, and this is this is a topic I talk a lot about in our career navigator program is preparing for outreach or an interview. So as you are doing the research for the organization that you want to transition into, and level up to live the brand of the organization, know the product, know the service know that competitor, knowledge is power, the more knowledge you have of the organization's products and services, the more confident you're going to have in that networking conversation or job interview. And this is another strategy that has been very, very effective for a lot of our clients. And that is, is researching dark social. And what I mean by that and feel free to talk time and meta because this is your area of expertise is looking at what are people saying on social media platforms? For example, in Amazon reviews, if it happens to be a book or some other product, Reddit threads, Facebook conversations, what is being said, in those communities about the product, the service or the company.

Maddie Shears

Yep, super important. And I would even say like, that is a step I would consider when you're trying to sort out which title to target as well, because, you know, looking at a job description is so important. But as we know, because we've written a blog on this before, job descriptions can sometimes be a little bit vague. And they can also lead to a bit of a bait and switch situation as well. So while they're very important, you also want to be cognizant that sometimes job descriptions fall flat, and they are not properly describing what your future with the company could look like. So you know, what Maureen was just talking about and monitoring the dark social component is just another step you can take for yourself. I've personally for me, whenever I'm looking, you know, performing a job search, I love doing this research, because I find it incredibly fascinating. And I feel like I put on my detective glasses and I go, I go as deep as I possibly can. I mean, I will go to the company's LinkedIn page. But I will also go to the people who work for that company. And I'll basically look at all of their profiles, look at what they've you know, what, what did they do? What have they done for previous companies? How long have they been at the current company? In comparison, other companies that they've been at, there's so many ways that you can kind of educate yourself around, you know, what the work culture might be like what your future there might be like, and depending on the teacher that you do, you might find, you know, some of the things that are really important to you, you won't be able to sort out until you're actually there in a position. But there's certainly steps you can take to sort of help determine that early on. To an extent.

Maureen Farmer

Yeah, no, that's excellent. And then there's the job offer due diligence process, and in a nutshell, it's evaluating the offer before you sign it. Right. And and these are all the components of you know, career management practices that will produce a really great ROI for your future. And the way I look at it, when it comes from a job search point of view and industry change and so forth, is this analogy. You would never purchase a $5 million house without walking through the house, checking the plumbing, looking at the bedrooms, you know, checking out the kitchen and the back garden in the garage. You would never do that. So I I equate the job offer to a similar scenario. We need to evaluate the job offer to ensure that it meets our criteria, and I'll leave it at that.

What I like to do now is transitioning over to the engagement side, the corporate side of the coin, where we're going to talk about employee engagement. And if we go back to the 49%, that was mentioned in the article, and the study done by Gallup, we can infer from that, that there's a great deal of unhappiness or dissatisfaction in the labor market right now. And I've been around the block a few times. And so I've worked in corporate for many, many years. And I and I can't speak for everyone, I'll only speak for myself, and that I have typically never left an organization, I've typically left because of a situation that was not appealing to me. And some of it had to do with the person I was reporting to Now, having said that, I've been incredibly lucky to have amazing bosses in my career, there just been a couple of situations where it wasn't quite what I had thought it was going to be. And I would have to say that one of the most powerful engagement strategies for employers, when they're engaging with their own employees is simple, simple, simple. It's acknowledgement, recognition and listening to your employees. Yes, yes, absolutely. It's beyond simple. And I see this all the time I see it in, you know, some of the organizations that I advise and I'm, I'm always very curious as to why some leaders are not are reluctant to, to engage with her employees on a personal level. And I'm not suggesting that we become best friends and go on vacations together, although that certainly does happen. I'm, I'm suggesting a basic simple respect of another human being and in their life. So for some practical strategies that will help you with engagement, I have been interviewed by authority magazine, and we'll put a link to the show notes of the video there. And it includes the five things we must do to attract and retain great talent. And as I just mentioned, engaging with employees in a very personal way. And when I mean, very personal, I'm talking about, you know, really listening to your employees and understanding what makes them happy at work can go so far, and keeping your people happy. And you don't need to have a policy, a corporate policy to do this, you don't have to have a corporate program to do to do this. Any supervisor, manager, director, CEO or chair of the board can do this activity, it will, it will reduce turnover. There's a few things you can do informally, in your, your your day to day work. One of them, one of them is to acknowledge and recognize your employee in a public meeting. So how might that look Maddie, if we were to do that?

Maddie Shears

Oh, well, if both the employee and the you know, the boss, the manager, the leader is in the same meeting that can be obviously impactful, because they will see you acknowledging them amongst other leaders, amongst other colleagues, I think that's a very, very simple to your point, a powerful way of just acknowledging their hard work, if they are not in the meeting, then that's a different kind of powerful, because you're not doing it for the pat on the back, the obvious pat on the back of the employee, you're letting everybody know in the room, that somebody that works for our company, using their name and letting them know, like, you know, this is something that they did, it was really powerful, really important. And it made all the difference, then, you know, you, you, that person may get wind of that conversation being had an important meeting. And that's they wanted to acknowledge you not even in front of you in front of other people.

Maureen Farmer

When we say your brand speaks for you, and when you're not in the room, and that's a really good example of that type of scenario. And that human people crave acknowledgement, they need to be seen, they need to feel belonging, they need to feel as though they're belonging to the group, it goes back to, you know, basic human needs, you know, to feel safe, and so forth. Absolutely Powerful. And we can do it the other way as well. We can also as an employee, acknowledge our boss or the leader in front of others as well. So that's a great way. And of course, it has to be authentic and genuine. We don't want to be disingenuous by sharing false flattery. This is not what this is about at all. And but it's being mindful that you know, everyone needs to be seen and feel heard. And one of the strategies that I find really fascinating is this day interview and my good friend Tim Brennan, a shout out to him. So Tim Brennan, he was on the podcast before we're both very interested in employee engage even talks about stay interviews. And while you can do it formally, you can also do it informally by going for a cup of coffee and just listening to the person and finding out, you know, what really makes them excited. And I don't know if I'm gonna be able to say this here, Maddie, but you and I have done that as well, when you were full time with Westgate, we would have these conversations.

Maddie Shears

Mm hmm. Yeah, of course!

Maureen Farmer

About what you like, and what's important to you. And that's how we've designed a lot of the work that we did together was around what was important to you. And I feel as though you don't need to have a formal policy in order to have that, in order to do that activity, it can be done at the conversational level. And so if you're listening to this, and you have a group that's reporting to you think about that, think about how how powerful this public acknowledgement can be to members of the team, of course, some people don't want the public acknowledgement. And if you know that, you can always send a nice email to your employee to say, look, I really admired what you did on the project, you did a great job on the implement implementation, and so on and so forth. And then copying, the skip levels of copying your leader on it will go a long way to help engage that employee with authentic and meaningful feedback. So the acknowledgement in a public meeting, you know, email communication, the state interview, these are all things that can produce excellent results for your organization and your team and keep your company profitable.

Maddie Shears

Yeah, absolutely. Plus, I just think that it would likely make your work life as a leader more enjoyable. I, I think sometimes, especially in really big organizations, there can be kind of like grind mentality, where it's very hyper focused on the work being done and the work that needs to be done. But we're all just human beings. And we all have a lot more in our life than our job, like a lot, a lot more. And I think that if you as an employer are recognizing that, then you will have more conversations that that I think, connect you on a human level. And I think that that's kind of where a company shines, and where the people want to stay. And they, they want to do good work where they work. But they also appreciate the fact that they're there. The company recognizes their life outside of that. So you know, the work life harmony component, as well. And I do think that the pandemic proved to people that, oh, in this crisis, you were able to adjust something that was having a huge impact on my ability to stay with this company, I can work from home. And in fact, I can do it very, very well. So when that happens, I think, there, there has been a lot more acknowledgment across the board for employees where it's like, you know, I don't need a pandemic to happen for you to recognize that this is something that would really, really help me and make me be a better employee working here

Maureen Farmer

And so we know where you fall on that! Ha ha. 

Maddie Shears

Ha ha! The funny thing is that I prefer hybrid because I don't like to work 100% remote, but but I do understand it for those who have like these crazy commutes. And I'm like what, you know, that's just it's crazy. So. So I think when you when you have something catastrophically have two by force affect something. And through that we're through these different studies, we're able to see like, not only can we accommodate our people, but like it's actually proven to be better for our efficiency and productivity than I think it's like, what, how will how can we take this experience and think about other ways that we can be there for our people in the future where maybe an archaic policy or something that existed previously is hindering us from being able to do that? I just think that that's something that companies should continue to consider in the future.

Maureen Farmer

I agree. So here is a call to action for you, Maddie. And for every listener listening to this conversation today, I'm going to ask a question, what one thing will you do today as a result of listening to this podcast, either as a careerist or as a leader? So what one thing will you do today as a result of listening to this, write that down and continue with your T chart and see where you go with that.

Maddie Shears

Yes, I love that. That's great. Thank you. And Maureen, you can do it too.

Maureen Farmer

I will!

 Maddie Shears

Because this is the the corporate side that we just discussed and the individual side. But if you're an entrepreneur, if you're a business owner, like Maureen is, the same activities are applicable because maybe you've worked with a client that you know isn't aligned and that can make you not enjoy something that you've built from the ground up, which is almost worse. So even if you're an entrepreneur and the corporate side of things doesn't necessarily apply to you just consider that you can, you can kind of use it for a lot of different applications.

Maureen Farmer

So what Maddie is referring to is the ideal company profile, or ideal client profile. So we've worked, we've created an ideal company profile process as part of our career navigator program. And it helps to bring clarity to the types of roles and types of organizations and basically the types of people that you want to work with. You want to work with organizations and clients and human beings that align with your values.

So I'll tell you what aligns with my values Maddie. Food. So, I am excited to present a restaurant...we will be doing this every year...we release a list of restaurants from around the world. And this is one I'm guessing most people on this call have never been to. It's called Vittles Cafe and it is located in a community called New Ross Nova Scotia. And it's on route 12, highway 12 in New Ross, and it is a little cafe. It offers the best smoked meat sandwich I have ever had. Bar none. And sorry, Shwartz Deli in Montreal, one of the famous and oldest in the world...I think Vittles has one on you.

Maddie Shears

I love that. I have one too. And actually it's really in the same theme. I also love food. Anybody who knows Maureen and I it's really not difficult to sort that out on any trip related to work, like work first, but then also we're always talking about like, where are we going to go? Anyways, there's one called the Smokin Birds. It's more of a sort of like permanent food truck kind of style. So it's not like a sit down restaurant. But they have wonderful picnic tables and it's in Muskoka. Well, it's in Bala, Ontario, but the Muskoka district, and it's amazing. And it's really great. The staff is wonderful. The food is amazing. Right next to where you will order your food is a massive, like the biggest smoker I've ever seen. And it's right from Texas, there's still like the lights, the Texas license plate from bringing it up. And anyways, really, really good food, I highly recommend their burgers and their brisket. And yeah, so if you're ever in Muskoka country, which is beautiful, by the way, so if you're going there anyways, good for you. And I hope you have a wonderful time. It's a beautiful part of Ontario.

Maureen Farmer

So we'll get both of these restaurant lists on to our list at the end of the year. We'll put them in the show notes. I will will put a link to the interview I mentioned. And I really hope that you garnered some value from this conversation today. If you're ever interested in reaching out to us if you would like to become a client or learn more about our work, reach out to us at Maureen@westgatebranding.com.

Maddie Shears

Yeah. Wonderful. Well, that concludes the 60th episode of the Get Hired Up podcast. Thank you for joining us and Maureen thank you so much for being a wonderful guest. You wear both hats very well!

Maureen Farmer

Thank you for the hospitality Maddie. I had lots of fun!