Mystery Guest on Get Hired Up

Mystery Guest

Jay (a technology sales leader) discusses his dynamic career and massive transition from Asia to the Canadian labor market. He shares his lessons learned, what he would change, and how he landed one of his top 3 job offers before the job was ever posted.  


Transcript

Maureen Farmer

So, finding a job using the hidden job market. I'm very honored today to speak with Jay, a sales leader in the Canadian technology industry. So Jay, you've worked around the world, you've worked with many sectors. So, I would like to ask you how it felt to face a complicated job search, where you had transitioned from Asia, to the Canadian job market.

Mystery Guest

Sure, Maureen, thanks for having me...it's good to be speaking with you. And you know, I'm happy to share my experience pursuing, you know, roles within the hidden job market. So, to answer your question about my job search, and some of the complications there. The background is, you know, I've spent the last seven years in Asia between Singapore and Hong Kong and had decided to move back to Canada, which is my home was, which is where I am from, I have about twenty years worth of work experience across different industries, like you mentioned, across different roles, started my career in private equity, moved into the technology field as a product manager. And then in the last few years has been involved in account management and sales leader role. So I share that because, you know, in terms of my resume, one of the challenges I feel I had to manage was, you know, I'm not a career salesperson, I'm not a career marketing person. So that's one thing that I had to try to communicate in terms of, you know, why those things were strengths of mine. A second challenge I faced in my job search was, as you can imagine, having spent a few years away from Canada, most of my network, my experience, as well as my track record was in Asia. And I was coming back to Canada, you know, after having left maybe about nineteen years ago when I graduated from university. So again, a very small network, no track record here. And you know, really no brand name recognition in terms of, you know, the market, and employers knowing who I was.

Maureen Farmer

So, I know that about you, but you also had a fairly major stint in the US correct after grad school?

Mystery Guest

Yeah, that's right. I spent about ten years in the US, part of it was to obtain a graduate degree. But the balance of that was working in East Coast around the New York area, starting my career in private equity, like I mentioned, and then going for my MBA and then transitioning to the technology sector, in particular to the telecom sector. So, what that amounts to is, you know, really great little work experience in Canada, which I was coming back to after about nineteen, twenty years away since I graduated from university.

Maureen Farmer

So, thinking about the last say, I don't know, eight to ten months that you've been back in Canada, what was different for you this time with this particular job search? Where did you start? And how did you end up where you are today?

Mystery Guest

Sure. I think, again, speaking to some of the challenges that a job search was, you know, just to give some context to some of my experience, I'm not the most senior person out there, but I'm certainly not the most junior, I would say that I'm in middle of my career, meaning my last role, I was a vice president. And in Asia, you know, the tear of Vice President, the meaning of that the level of responsibility is different than that from what I've seen in Canada.

Maureen Farmer

Okay, so let's stop. Right. That's awesome. Thank you for that. So, I would love to know more about that. What's the difference between that role in Asia versus Canada or the US?

Mystery Guest

Sure.

So, Canada and US, the title of Vice President, Senior Vice President—it is a lot more senior. Typically, in Asia, in terms of seniority and responsibility—when I was a VP in Asia, I was probably one of ten Vice Presidents, for my company. I had about maybe fifteen people reporting to me, but I wasn't managing managers. So in the case of vice presidents here, who typically manage directors, especially with a sales organization, they will have responsibility at the country level, or even the North America level. So, one of the things in terms of my resume was having the title of Vice President and applying for roles at the regional sales manager level, even the director level, you know, recruiters, hiring managers didn't understand this difference and felt I could be, you know, fishing and taking a step back in my career.

Maureen Farmer

So, thinking about where you started your job search, I believe it may have been 8-10 months ago versus where you are now. I know from September, December, I believe of the previous year, you were in job search mode, and then we got connected sometime in January, February. So tell me about sort of that initial piece from September, October, December to where you landed after, you know, the January, February period? What's the difference I guess?

Mystery Guest

Sure.

So, in the fourth quarter of last year, before I started working with you, as a career coach, there was a mix of, you know, trying to build my own network, but then also, in a separate channel, applying to roles posted, you know, on indeed.com, LinkedIn, as well as other job portals, and just trying to figure out who would be interested in talking to me, so I focused a lot on senior account management roles. So, sales roles, individual contributor roles in particular. And, you know, going through the the job posting process, and having either a computer or recruiter scanning a resume and not seeing candidate experience, seeing that I had a senior level title, seeing that I didn't, I wasn't a pure enterprise sales person with, you know, 15 to 20 years worth of enterprise sales experience, because as I mentioned before, I've done a number of different things in my career, it resulted in, you know, really no response, because I just wasn't passing the initial filter, it was too difficult for these recruiters or hiring managers to try to understand my story, and how that could fit with a job that they were working on for a client.

Maureen Farmer

Right, so you didn't tick all the boxes for them in that particular sector or that particular industry?

Mystery Guest

Yes, that's correct.

Maureen Farmer

Right. Right. So let's think about that. How did you how did that make you feel in that process? I'm sure that you know, with someone with your degree of experience and the depth of your networks, I mean, after all, in Asia, you worked with fairly senior level clients, and globally. I mean, you worked with some fortune 50 clients and brought them on board in Asia. And here you are in Canada and you know, no one's paying attention, even though we (you and I) both know, that the value proposition was there.

Mystery Guest

Yeah, it certainly was frustrating. There was a part of me that knew that this could happen. And I was going through this process, just to see what kind of feedback would come back, I was surprised that nothing came back, really nothing came back at all. And so it soon turned into realization that this was an exercise without a good return on investment, and that I needed to, you know, change the strategy. I'd still been trying to network with people and build my network through LinkedIn through friends of friends. But that was still I believe, at that point, really a shotgun approach. I was interested in, really, several areas within the software industry, I decided for myself, I didn't want to go after hardware jobs, because I just didn't have the requisite experience. But not even having a focus on you know, which sectors of software to target. Looking at, you know, different things from DRP software to cloud solutions or cybersecurity, it was just too broad. And in terms of the meetings or coffees that I obtained with people in those industries, I wasn't clear in terms of my purpose of why I was reaching out to them and why I was really interested in a particular sub sector of software. So, there was some reaching around in the dark there. Even with the networking.

Maureen Farmer

Right, I think having a clarity of purpose, understanding what you want, what you don't want, and we talked about that before as well. So thinking about the process, what's different this time than last time? You know, we talked about indeed, LinkedIn, applying for jobs. What's the fundamental difference between that strategy and the strategy that you employed?

Mystery Guest

Yeah. So, when we started working together, Maureen, in that time period, January, February, we talked about a strategy of deciding on target companies who are your top three, top five companies? Having a starting point there, that you know, enabled me to not worry about trying to boil the ocean, so to speak, and going after all the Microsoft, all of the SAPs, or whoever, and just say, listen, what are you truly interested in and where's the link in terms of your resume? So you, I think, I went away as part of my homework. And after the first initial set of discussions and decided, you know, listen, I have a background in mobile, you know, I can make the case and I still, I'm interested in enterprise mobility. I also have a background in professional services, consulting, and learning platforms. So, that led us to a discussion about okay, LinkedIn would be really cool. Have you really thought about going after them? And what's your plan?

Maureen Farmer

So, can I stop us just for a moment, because this absolutely fascinates me. I'd love to learn more. Well, I do feel as though I know a fair bit but, tell us a little bit about you know, your experience in Asia, in the last organization that you worked with, in professional services.

Mystery Guest

Sure.

The industry that I was in, in the company that I worked for, was in strategic consulting, strategy consulting, slightly different model from the McKinseys and Bains of the world. In fact that company sold its services to those top tier consulting firms, as well as you know, investment banks, and other large corporates fortune 50, fortune 100 companies. What I'll say about it is that it's a very different business model. And so, you know, going back to your original question about challenges...it didn't have the brand name in North America that, you know, a traditional consulting firm would have. So there was some, I guess, because of the lack of brand, it was difficult to communicate, you know, what the value proposition was of my experience there.

Maureen Farmer

So, tell us a little bit about that value proposition because I feel like that you're being a little bit shy here about what you accomplished.

Mystery Guest

Okay, at the end of the day, the value that this company provides is access for our clients to you know, the foremost experts in subject matter, domain experts in the world, in any field, it could be medicine, it could be technology, it could be agriculture, you name it. And, you know, the model that the company has—a network of these experts close to half a million of them that operate as independent consultants. And so, that company's job, and its value proposition was to facilitate consulting engagements between that network of these independent subject matter experts, and the clients. So having said that, there's a lot of, I think, real great experience and skills that I developed, having been with the company in terms of really getting to the bottom of what the needs were of the clients, what kind of information they needed, and who would provide them that information and ultimately, the help they needed to solve, you know, a question, a problem or do a longer term consulting engagement.

Maureen Farmer

So, I'm going to ask you to get really granular here, and you may not want to mention companies or projects, and I completely respect that. I want our listener to really get a sense of okay, so what does that look like? And if you're uncomfortable mentioning a brand name, I completely respect that because I understand the confidentiality around that. But, you know, don't be shy, tell us a little bit of maybe one project or two projects that you've worked on, that really made a difference in the market that you were serving.

Mystery Guest

Okay, sure. I want to answer and I'm happy to get into details. And you know, I'll follow your lead here. You know, one particular client that I worked with was Google. So, Google Asia Pacific. It was a new client that I brought on board to my book of business...part of my remit in Asia was to develop a book of clients in the technology space. So the Cisco's, the Google's, the Alibaba's of the world, traditionally sold into investment banks as well as consulting firms. As I mentioned, Google approached me saying that, hey, we need help, we actually don't have this expertise in house. And what the expertise they didn't have in house was, and it sounds kind of funny is that they needed people who were true experts, in mobile user interface and user experience design. They also needed experts who were the best in their field related to mobile analytics. So it sounds kind of funny, right? Google, large company, a lot of bright people. They dominate the mobile space now. But they said, you know, we need this help, we need this external help. And that was the first question I asked them. I said, Why? Why are you coming to me? Why can't you pull somebody out of Mountain View, California to help you with it? And so, you know, once we get past the...

Maureen Farmer

Ah, but I'm not gonna let you off the hook. What was their answer to that question? I want to know!

Mystery Guest

The answer to that was, "we simply don't have these people in market. We don't have these people in Indonesia and Malaysia, and Japan and India and China." And that's where we want to leverage this expertise. And so through some probing, I learned that they were trying to position Google as kind of a strategic consultant, strategic partner, to their clients like Alibaba, and like Singapore Airlines, like Peninsula Hotels, because they wanted to pivot away from just being the company that sold AdWords. They wanted to inform these technology companies about what their digital strategy should be. And so through these discussions, you know, I worked out with them that the deliverable, the format in which we would provide this expertise to their clients, like an Alibaba was through a series of workshops, whereby that UX expert would do an audit of Alibaba's mobile web sites, mobile apps. A second analytics expert would do an audit, and then provide recommendations in that workshop, about how Alibaba was leveraging tools, and different types of analytic strategies to understand the behavior of their customers, as they spent time on Alibaba's products on their mobile phones. So, I've gotten into kind of a second layer of detail...what it meant was that I had a lot of great experience as a consultant, but not delivering the deliverable. But being able to probe and truly understand and help the clients understand what they needed, and finding the right people and resources to help them solve their problems. So, at the end of the day, you know, this opportunity to Google was great for the company. You know, my office was the first to sign Google on as a client. First of 22 offices globally. 

Maureen Farmer

...because of your leadership, however. Let's be clear about that. I don't want you to be shy about that.

Mystery Guest

Yeah. Well, it was because of you know, that leadership, as well as being able to manage resources internally and manage a team and my company, as well as ultimately manage the subject matter experts that we brought on board to work with Google.

Maureen Farmer

That's fantastic. And it's fascinating. I absolutely love to hear about these things.

Mystery Guest

Imagine trying to explain that on your your resume in two or three bullet points? And that's part of the reason why I work with you is to be able to do that.


Maureen Farmer

Context is so important. So, one of the things that is so important for everyone out there, whether you're trying to land a new employer or a new client is understanding the value proposition. So, what is it that I deliver? Ehat what can I do to help you achieve your goals? What's the return on investment for hiring me, whether you hire me as an employee, or you hire me as a consultant or some other partner? So, being crystal clear on the value, I think, is one of the most important data points that job seekers and client seekers can master because when you're in the frame, you can't really see the complete context but when you're able to articulate, 'Okay, so you know, I was able to produce these results, using those resources with this impact...it becomes a signature story that you can tell a potential employer. So, anyone listening to this today, Jay...what would you say to another person, another executive who may be listening, if they were in the same situation you were in a number of months ago, and I'm not suggesting that this is, you know, to hire Maureen, or whatever. I don't mean that at all. I'm thinking about the process itself. What would you have done differently? Or what would you advise someone to do differently? If they were in your shoes? How might you advise them?

Mystery Guest

Yeah, I think there needs to be an understanding that, you know, there is a hidden job market, you hear that term thrown around, but it's hidden for a reason, because a lot of hiring is done outside of these job posts, or they could post something, but they ultimately decide to go with the referral from within the organization, or referral from whoever the hiring manager is to ultimately place that job. And, you know, employers don't want to go through the time and the cost of engaging a recruiter or posting something online, if they can do it themselves, because it comes with the referral. So, I think there's something there in terms of, you know, acknowledging this, but then I felt like I created the job market myself. You know, it was hidden in the sense that Yeah, I didn't think of it first. But, when you and I had decided on, hey, these are my top five companies that lead to a plan, right? And I asked my team all the time, my team of account managers, what's your plan? And I needed to treat it the same way, what's my plan, to get to sell myself, to sell myself into a role with a company that I want to be with? So once we had the top five target companies...that launched into, you know, plan around, okay, who do I need to network? Who do I need to contact? How am I going to use LinkedIn to find these people? what's the value proposition of me, you know, reaching out to them and them accepting a coffee, a conversation, a phone call, meeting, a lunch? And how does that sound? How do I do it in a way that doesn't come off as I'm just focused on the job search or come off as I need this job?

Maureen Farmer

Let's stop right here and address that issue because no one wants to feel like a fake or a phony or inauthentic when you've invited someone to lunch or a coffee so how did you know? How did you manage that sort of...maybe imbalance of 'Okay, I'm inviting you for coffee, I'm inviting you for dinner, I want to ask you for a job. How did you deal with that?'

Mystery Guest

Yeah, I think those are some of the questions that I had for you, Maureen. And some of the concerns I had, I think part of it is in the messaging, when you're reaching out to somebody is, you know, take the pressure off, right? They know you're there because you are looking for a job. But you have to make it crystal clear that your expectation is not to come away with a lead to a job or a way to get into their hiring process, but that you're there to get information, you have a genuine interest in their company and their industry, you are transitioning your career or you're looking to do something in that particular industry. And that's why you're interested in speaking to them. It's, you know, the nature of networking, right, people are willing to offer, you know, some time and some help. Because that's just human nature, help somebody with, you know, some understanding that there could be a quid pro quo reciprocation in the future. And that's just networking. And of course, culturally, we see networking differently.

Maureen Farmer

Okay, right. So, what's the difference between networking in North America and networking in Asia?

Mystery Guest

I found that, you know, in Canada, and in North America, the acceptance and use of LinkedIn is much higher. So there's an adoption rate. But outside of that, I feel like people are willing to make the time to have those, you know, conversations...that coffee. It's just more part of the working culture whereas in Asia, depending on the culture, there can be some protectiveness about their own time or making an introduction of you to appear to their boss because their reputations on the line, they don't want to be in a position where they lose face with that person, if they turn out to introduce you and you know, you have an absolutely horrible conversation with their boss, for example. And of course, that referee looks like somebody that isn't a good judge of people...wasting their boss's time, so on and so forth. It doesn't mean that networking in Asia is impossible, but there's just a different view on it. And you know, really culturally, there are different words for it in terms of, you know, that level of goodwill and credibility you have. Like in China, they call that Guangxi and it helps to have a lot of that, to be able to navigate around and meet the right people, as well as in, you know, career. But that's China...doesn't mean it's impossible. But that's part of the cultural fabric, for example.

Maureen Farmer

Well, I really don't think in my opinion, that the cultural fabric is all that much different, I think it's just manifested differently. And in my experience, if you, the listener want to connect with an individual in a network, there has to be some type of reciprocation. I don't think that that's unnatural to have that...that sense of 'Okay, you know, we're going for coffee, or lunch', always offer a pay, if you're going to invite someone to dinner or lunch or coffee, it's on you. And the magic unfolds there as you build a trusting relationship. And, you know, I always say, you know, offer some help, so if I'm inviting you, Jay...for coffee, or dinner, you know, I'm going to have a conversation, and it's going to sound something like, you know, what I'm looking for today is really only information, and, you know, no strings attached, there's no obligation. And if there's ever anything that I can do for you, Jay, please let me know, I'd be happy to help. And I think that that's a very simple, maybe oversimplified way of putting it. But I think that at the end of the day, professionals don't want—no matter where they come from, don't want to be put on guard or feel uncomfortable, when someone's asked them for, you know, a coffee meeting, knowing that that person may be looking for a job opportunity. And I think a way to disarm that is just to let them know, you know what, this is no strings attached, I'm only looking for information. And I know, in my own experience, that always puts me at ease to know that, you know, what I'm offering is some information to someone that they may be able to leverage at some point. But then I'm not expected to pull a rabbit out of the hat in terms of offering a job, because very few of us have that luxury of being able to offer this to anyone.

Mystery Guest

Yeah, when you take that off the table, it does, you know, take the pressure off. And I had a number of discussions where, you know, by the end of it, they did share information and their perspective about the industry, but they didn't have any immediate, you know, ideas for companies to talk to, people to talk to. And that was fine. Right? I was still able to get value with the conversation, because I could ask very direct questions about, you know, things like, you know, what are the responsibilities for this role, what are the comp expectations, things like that. At the end of the day, they weren't the hiring manager, and, you know, there was nothing they wanted to or could offer at that point. So, it was a very factual discussion, and I would get a lot of good intelligence at that. So, by the next person I networked with, who maybe had more of an opportunity to suggest, you know, people to talk to, or roles...to go and talk to people about, I had some of that information, right, it wasn't having to ask it again, you could focus on 'Okay, so what do you know about this role? What do you know about this company, what's your involvement? Who should I talk to?' More tactical things that could lead me to that conversation with the hiring manager, for example.

Maureen Farmer

Yes, absolutely. So that's wonderful. And so you are, I believe, 5,6,7 months into this new role. Is that correct?

Mystery Guest

Actually, about 3.

Maureen Farmer

Okay, I'm ahead of the game. How are things going?

Mystery Guest

They're going very well. And, you know, this company was in my top three. And in terms of, you know, the strategies that we talked about Maureen, I put them into place, to get this role. And basically, I knew nobody at this company, went to LinkedIn, got in contact with the VP of product management, said, "hey, listen, I've been involved in the mobile industry since 2006, but haven't done anything and enterprise mobility specifically, I would like to learn more about the industry and what you guys do and your company, would you be free for coffee? And that's where it started. Senior enough person, somebody that's been with the company, you know, he's like, employee number 10, I think. So he introduced me to head of global sales. Who at this point is my boss's boss. That was a five minute conversation when he was heading to the airport. And it was very, you know, direct in terms of "Yeah, what are you looking for? Are you looking for a sales leader role, individual contributor role?" And he said, "Okay, I'll put your name through to this person, because we have...actually your your timing is quite fortuitous. We have a process right now. I'll get you in." And, you know, he eventually ended up being my last interview for the role that I have now. And it was great because I already had a connection. He knew that, you know, I could network my way into the company into this opportunity. And he already had a feeling for you know, who I was, you know, by the time I did a full fledged interview with him.

Maureen Farmer

So by that point he had, he felt as though he could trust you?

Mystery Guest

Yes. And he had some understanding of my background, he also knew that I didn't have the traditional sales leader background. We didn't have to spend any time on that, we spent time on some other things that he really want to understand about some of my leadership experience and parts of my sales experience.

Maureen Farmer

Wow. Okay, so this has been fantastic.

So what's the call to action here? And I don't, and again, I don't want this to be an infomercial for my services. But if you could, you know, speak directly to another person out there who is in your role, what would you say is the the number one strategy you would use? That's different than you might have done before?

Mystery Guest

Yeah, I think if you're somebody, whether you're somebody like I was, you know, late last year, in terms of looking for a new role and not being currently working, or if you're somebody that's working now, and potentially happy or medium happy, it's, it's always in your best interest to think about your career long term, and employ some of the things that we talked about in terms of understanding, you know, where do I want to be in three years, what are the companies that would help me do that? So, for the people that are working now, and thinking about the next step, you know, that you need to continue to build your network, but there's a certain lens, you have to look through, in terms of positioning yourself for for the next role, right, that is beyond just knowing somebody meeting somebody at a trade show, it's trying to meet people outside of those people you meet at the trade show, potentially people more senior. But always having that in mind to continually set yourself up to find out about opportunities, as opposed to waiting for an executive recruiter to contact you for a role that they picked up, you know, they may not have had success in placing, or which you're competing against, you know, 10-15 other great candidates, like yourself, right? There's something there in terms of...the hidden job market is always there, whether or not you're working or not.

Maureen Farmer

Right. So, this is a great segue into the final sort of jaunt for this conversation around what is the hidden job market? Maybe we should have addressed this at the very beginning. But the hidden job market is comprised of 80 to 95% of jobs that are never advertised, or that are not advertised yet. And so you have, you know, you have 95% of job candidates, or people competing for 5% of those advertised jobs, versus I'm guessing less than 1% of people who are out there mining the hidden job market, because there's virtually no competition there. And I know for a fact that this is the case for you, because there was no competition for you. You contacted this company, I don't believe that there was any posting, is that correct?

Mystery Guest

Yeah, there wasn't. I got in right before they started that process. And now that I have been in the company, I know what that process looks like, you know, a senior leader role in kind of a soft skill role like sales, you know, they need somebody with a warm reference, right? There's so many things you can't test for, in the interview in addition to skills: personality, you know, resilience, creativity. It always helps out a lot, to have that reference into the process. And for somebody to vouch for you to say, you know, I've known this person, or I've just met them, but you know, I've had a good discussion with them. I know, this is the kind of person that could be a good fit for this role as opposed to trying to gauge that from an interview and then taking the time to screen somebody. Right, and they can be totally off base.

Maureen Farmer

Wonderful. Well, Jay, I want to say thank you very much for taking the time to speak with me and our listeners. And I'm just going to wrap up, is there any final comments you'd like to say before I do a final wrap up of the call?

Mystery Guest

I certainly want to thank you for offering me the opportunity to share some of my experience, tackling the hidden job market and working with you. And then, you know, getting to the role that I have now, I think my final thought is, everybody does understand the value of networks, but you have to kind of have a game plan going in as to why reaching out to people and you know, some of the value that you're trying to get out of relationships, especially when you don't have a specific ask in mind. And so I kind of put that in the category of career development. And, you know, all the coffees and things that I did, there's time invested, but that's an investment and so it's a relationship that can bear fruit later, as opposed to me applying to a job posting and that you know, disappearing into the ether. There's no investment, there's no long lasting value, there's no value that could possibly come back to me, especially if I didn't get a job.

Maureen Farmer

Well, I mean, there are 250 to 500 job applicants for every fortune 500 opening that's out there. So, you know, if you are playing that lottery, you know, it can be a very challenging exercise and the more you fit the role, if you tick all the boxes, which clearly you didn't in a traditional sense, but you still had a value proposition. I think it's being clear about what you offer, how that's different from everyone else. And I think everything that is old is new again. So, kind of knocking on people's doors, you know, doing the non traditional type of outreach, I think, it gets people's attention, I believe of decision makers, for sure. So with that, Jay, thank you so much for your time. I can't wait to find out what's next for you. Thank you

Mystery Guest

I can't wait to tell you! Take care.

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