Roger Duguay

Roger Duguay

Roger T. Duguay is a Managing Partner of Boyden Canada and Founder of Boyden’s Montréal office, where he leads Quebec operations. As the newly appointed Leader of Boyden’s Global CEO & Board Services Practice, Roger is working to redefine the firm’s approach on a global scale as it continues to connect clients with leaders who can deliver in an era of disruption. 

Over the course of his career in executive search, Roger has been involved in over 100 CEO and Board placements.


Transcript

Maureen Farmer

Roger T. Duguay is a Managing Partner of Boyden Canada and Founder of Boyden’s Montréal office, where he leads Quebec operations. He has been a member of the board of Boyden Canada since 2016. As the newly appointed Leader of Boyden’s Global CEO & Board Services Practice, Roger is working to redefine the firm’s approach on a global scale as it continues to connect clients with leaders who can deliver in an era of disruption.

Over the course of his career in executive search, Roger has been involved in over 100 CEO and Board placements. He is also a Certified Corporate Director (ICD.D) with extensive board experience. He currently serves on several boards, including one of the most forward-thinking business events in the world, C2 Montréal, and is Chairman of the Board of LOGIQ.

Prior to founding Boyden’s Montréal office, Roger worked at other top-rated international management and human capital consulting firms, most recently serving as Managing Partner. He also has key experience outside the search industry, having served as an Actuary with AON Hewitt and Executive Vice President at technology firm Averna.

While studying toward a Ph.D. in organizational behavior at HEC Montréal, Roger did research work on the motivation, mobilization and leadership of senior executives. He earned his MBA from HEC Montreal as well as a Bachelor’s degree in Actuarial Sciences and a Certificate in Statistical Economics from Université Laval.

In 2015, Roger released his best-selling book, Démarquez-Vous: Comment Maximiser Votre Impact (Stand Out: The Art of Creating an Impact (2017)), which examines the best approaches to making outstanding first impressions at the executive level. The book is based on more than 1,000 interviews with executives across North America in all avenues of business, and was published by Les Editions La Presse. Roger has recently published his second book - Digital faux pas. Roger, it's my absolute pleasure to welcome you here today to the get hired up podcast.

Roger Duguay

Hello, very nice to be here!

Maureen Farmer

Indeed. And we connected about 18 months ago at the beginning of COVID. So much has happened since then. And today, as we discussed earlier, there are three topical areas I would love to discuss with you, focusing on the great resignation. That's a big topic today, the globalization of talent that's mentioned in your book, Standout and in personal branding. And I'd like to start the conversation with a quote that I created myself, which says, "Your personal brand speaks for you when you're not in the room."

Roger Duguay

Yeah, that tells so much about the personal brand. And I think when you try to manage your career, you need to think about your personal brand. And we have not been thought or we were not coached, or we did not study to develop or even to know what is a personal brand. And this is why I think many executives or anyone who has a career, most of the time, they don't know where to start. They don't know what it means. They don't know why they should do it. They don't understand until the need to build a professional network, or until the need to look for a new job, the importance of having a personal brand and the importance of developing and managing it before it is imposed on you.

Maureen Farmer

Yes. And I think much of the time, Roger, I don't know if you would agree with this. But we are focusing on the technical competence, and even leadership competence, but seldom focus on the visibility. So, a lot of times people believe that, you know, I wasn't successful in that, in that competition, because my technical skills weren't developed enough, maybe my financial skills, maybe I didn't understand, or maybe they feel I don't understand how to read a balance sheet or understand governance, when in fact, much of the time, at least in my experience, it has to do with the development of trust and relationships and the impression that you leave on the interview committee or the board of directors.

Roger Duguay

That's right. And I think what is really different nowadays is the level of each of the jobs you will be taking. And I talk a lot about that in my book, because only in the last 15 years, I see a lot of changes, and it is going to continue like that. But we come from an era where our parents had one job or maybe two jobs for like 20 years, 30 years. And now we are in a seat where most of us might have three or four, five jobs in a career and we are going into a zone where our children will have most likely 10 careers of maybe four years each. And why is it so important to mention that? It becomes the main argument to understand and to know why you should develop your own personal brand. Because if you stay in the same company for 20 years, or 30 years, you don't need as much of a personal brand, because you might not go back to market a lot. But if you are thinking or planning to have 10 different jobs, within 10 different markets or companies around the country or the world, you need to think about your personal brand. I think that's the main key why suddenly, we are talking more about building  and understanding and adding a personal brand.

Maureen Farmer

In your book, you say globalization of talent places us in competition with the best in the world. And to your point, you know, if you are going to be out into other markets where people don't know you, where people don't know your brand...it really needs to speak for you. 

Roger Duguay 

That's right, and you're touching on a very good point, even without COVID, we were going to compete against other candidates across the globe. Now, with COVID it is like 10 times, not worse, but 10 times more amplified. Why? Because we have proven...and if you had asked me if it's possible before COVID, I would have said I don't think it's possible. But we we proved wrong in my own job, we can do our work from anywhere in the world. That is amazing. That is amazing. For all of us, we might not need to come to work anymore. But at the same time, what does that mean? Anyone in the world can do your job as well. That is very scary. If anyone across the globe, anywhere...in Jakarta, in Tokyo or in Mexico, or the Caribbean somewhere, they can do your job as well as you because now, technology makes distance more irrelevant. That is very scary. You're competing against the best talent across the globe. So, COVID made that possible. So, even more than before now...if you combine the fact that we have many, many careers, and you combine the fact there is no more geography, there is no more territories, it is becoming a world market.

Maureen Farmer

...and the complexities that that presents for corporations, for companies and CEOs and boards. I'm thinking just off the top of my head here in terms of compensation. I mean, how do you price a CEO role if it's a virtual opportunity, versus if you were in Manhattan versus Halifax, Montreal, they're very different markets.

Roger Duguay

Different markets...there are pros and cons. Because I mean, obviously if you're based in New York, there is pros, because now you're touching the talent across the world, which might be cheaper. If you're in Quebec City, you might need people based in New York. So that's not as good. But the thing is, I think, if the corporations think properly, and they are well equipped, they can benefit truly, from those two, I would say demographic and societal changes. The fact that you know, you have access to talent anywhere and as a headhunter, it makes our job maybe a bit more complicated because now we have to turn every stone pretty much across the globe, but at the same time, it is wonderful, because we can have access to the talent across the globe. So, you know, in general, I would say 80% of our mandates for our clients, even though they are local clients, they are asking us to do a global search. Because even before COVID, they wanted to know what the talent like worldwide, but now they can access and they can hire the talent without having to relocate them. It's amazing in a way, it's amazing news.

Maureen Farmer

It is truly revolutionary, and it's just breaking into the precipice of the digital revolution. You know, we've surpassed the Industrial Revolution. And now we're, you know, tapping into a resource and a reality that we've never seen before. And I know, in your material, I know that you are a trained actuary. A little bit in your book, you talk about predictions based on demography, and things like that, and how the labor market pyramid has been inverted now, because we have, what would normally be majority of the resources at the bottom of the pyramid is turned on its head now. And I would love to learn a little bit about your experience in this new demographic, in this new labor market where...and I don't know if it's true, is it still true that people, senior executives and senior professionals who had retired are wanting to come back into the labor market? Are you seeing just the opposite as what we're seeing here in the Great Recession, Great Resignation?

Roger Duguay

I think what we thought 20 years ago, or 30 years ago, when I was a young actuary is not exactly what happened in the way that we were expecting. So many people to go and retire and the baby boomers to go and play golf and do nothing. But a lot of the active executives were reaching the end of the standard career, you know, the "go and the retired", then after a few years, we see a lot more of those coming back. And they say, Okay, listen, one year or two was fun, but I cannot do that. I'm becoming crazy, just not moving my brain and my skills. So they are coming back. There is a lot more openness, definitely for employers to look at those candidates. First of all, because the demographic, the candidates in the 60s, even in the 70s are extremely healthy, they take care of themselves, the new generation of retirees are extremely energetic. So, they are back in the market. And we see that, and there is a lot of demand for coaching or for mentoring, being senior on boards as well, so they're still in the market.

What is happening, though, is something we did not see coming 30 years ago...the change of skills required to do a job. And I'm going to explain myself on that. In the past, you would judge someone based on what they've done in the past, almost guaranteed for the success for the future. And now it doesn't apply as much anymore. And we don't tend to look as much as what they've done in the past to guarantee they're going to succeed. Why? Once again, we come from a past that okay, he was a CFO for 30 years and was always good in what they did. So, it's he is going to be a good CFO. In the next 10 years, the environment is changing so much, even if you've done a good job, it doesn't guarantee in the new environment and the new challenges. So, now we're changing the criteria a lot. So we're looking at people who can take you to the next level, and we have a lot of demand for clients to say, Listen, I had a good VP, HR, VP of finance, VP of technology brought me here today, but they're not the right person to bring me to the next level. Why? Because of their own interest, because they're not growing anymore, because they don't have the right attitude, because they don't know how to navigate into uncertainty. So, we tend to see qualities that are required or different than before.

Curiosity, adaptability, flexibility, interest into a non-structure, being able to navigate in the unknown. So, it doesn't matter as much, the age and the background that you have. It's the openness about using the right person to bring it to the next level. So, this is what we see a lot and that is changing the way we thought the typical succession of the baby boomers. Another big chain is a new generation. And when I say our parents it is just an expression, and of course, I'm doing a generality, but parents chose...most of us, you know, if you look at the Canadian history, you know, and the blue collar is really more of a white collar is more educated, they chose a career, they chose a job and securing the family and making sure the basics were covered. And now the younger generation after us are choosing a career for different reasons. Now, they are asking different questions that we didn't ask, okay, what do I really want to do? Am I contributing to society? What are my personal values? What are the values of the organization? You would never hear that 30 years ago, you would say, almost like you were in the Maslow Pyramid, you were not even thinking about the match of your own values, because we just wanted to get a job. But now, there is are older or more senior people thinking the younger crowd is more arrogant or disconnected. But I don't agree.

Maureen Farmer

I don't agree either. 

Roger Duguay 

This is the evolution of human beings. Now we're being more connected on our senses. We're being more connected to environment, we're being more connected. Not only that we we got to make money. So, they are asking much better questions than we did ask when we started our career. And I think we need to adapt and that is changing...we think the demographic is changing, but it's not true. The demographic is this spirituality of the younger generation being driven.

Maureen Farmer

A few years ago, I did research for a white paper on employee engagement. And one of the standard phrases I heard in my research was you know how to work with millennials. How to motivate millennials. And I became very offended by that perspective, because, you know, I don't know why people feel the need to categorize a group of people like that, and in a not so flattering way. Because millennial people are still people, they're leaders of tomorrow. And I have two children who are millennials, and I don't think about how I communicate with them. It's becomes a commoditization of a whole sector of the labor market. And I don't hear it so much anymore, Roger, but I did hear it, I used to hear that, you know, intergenerational dynamics and how to work with millennials. And I felt that it was really disrespectful.

Roger Duguay 

And I'm going to tell you why you felt like that. Because (it's not the same—I'm going to use the word carefully) but it's almost in the same range of gender discrimination or racial discrimination. We used to have that age discrimination, thinking that they were so different. Right? Same idea. And now we don't hear that anymore, because now the society's waking up with EDI—diversity and inclusion. And that includes age difference and cohort and groups, so this is why now suddenly we don't talk about how they are different, because we're switching the paradigm to okay, what as human beings do we want.

 I think, if you exclude those one who are living tragedy because of COVID—I don't want to be disrespectful, some people are living tragic situations because of COVID—some industries and some employees. But if you pause that for a moment, I think COVID has shaken the human beings in a good way. Because we are re-centering our values on, I think better criteria. And we are forced to ask ourselves the right questions. And some of those are being led by what we call a millennial...asking the right questions. I am not sure I would have become an actuary. 30 years later, I've made a choice based on social criteria that I did not even understand. So I have a lot of respect for people which choose a career or a life choice based on true feelings and personal journey

Maureen Farmer

And the values piece too. But look, there's nothing wrong with being an actuary. I think you're really good at math...are you Roger?

Roger Duguay

I know, I think it was great  brain gymnastics when I was younger, because we were so proud to be so good at school. But when I graduated, I knew nothing. I feel today, I was so ignorant about the true human nature...you should have showed us more than just doing calculations. So, it's a great gymnastic from a mental point of view, but you start your life, you don't know much.

Maureen Farmer

Oh, I think it's absolutely fascinating. And I think we're all on a journey, Roger, in terms of this personal branding and human growth. I think many and I will speak for my own generation...very few of us had that conversation, you know, starting our careers, you know, what aligns with our values and our strengths. And we want to make our parents proud. And we wanted to do what was right. And at least when I grew up, there was a sense of scarcity in the labor market. So you were lucky to or you felt fortunate to have any job. Not just any job, but you know, having a full time permanent job, at the height of a recession. That happened to me, by the way, everyone. In my life, I was very young at the time, and I had a full time permanent job. And I had a home and I was so unhappy. And you know what I did, I did the unthinkable, I left my permanent job to go back to university. And everyone thought I was crazy. And it's the best thing I ever did. Because I knew that if I stayed in particular...I worked in banking, and there is nothing wrong with banking, it was just not for me. And I made a gutsy move to do it. And I did it. But when I look back on the probably three or four careers I've had since then, I'm still on that journey. You know, I'm still...we're talking about that sense of curiosity, just so curious about people's careers and their businesses and what's important to them. And I think that's what makes this work that I'm doing so fascinating. And for just a moment, I'd like to go back to the list you talked about a few minutes ago...about skills that you're seeing as being really pivotal in today's business landscape and curiosity, adaptability, flexibility, and dealing with the unknown. Those are really important attributes to have. Are there any specific hard skills that you're seeing, that are missing among maybe the older crowd or the the newly retired or people who have been in a corporation maybe for a long time and want to do something different in a different industry?

Roger Duguay 

Yes, I'm going to tell you what I have noticed, which seems to be a profound lack in most of the executives I meet. And it's nobody's fault. We're not once again, we were not taught this, we were not brought up this way. But so much emphasis has been placed on a technical skill, or having a degree or having an experience. The human component and the soft skills and the emotional intelligence has been really underdeveloped. I'm going to refer back to a comment when you left a job, you went back to school. It's amazing. You wanted a personal journey. And that's amazing that you still think today you're on that journey, and that is the way it should be.

Maureen Farmer

I want to stop you there for a second because this quote—it just needs to come out right now. So, on page 36 of your book, you said authenticity isn't merely about standing firm on your position. Rather, it's about evolving day by day to become the person you really want to be. There is no point in remaining true to the person you are now. Instead, it's better to make sure we keep pace with the image of who we will be tomorrow.

Roger Duguay

I mean, it's so true and you know who awoke me on this? I think I mentioned that in my book somewhere when I had a chance to meet an amazing person—a Buddhist monk. I had a chance to take the time to discuss with them and when I realized that this person who I consider to be almost like Jesus Christ being alive, told me he was on a journey—not even halfway. I was like, okay, there is a problem. I'm pretty complete. And I'm a good person. And I'm almost like, the older person I want to be. This guy is 20 years older than me and he's not even half the man he wants to be and he is almost Jesus Christ. I was like, Okay. something is wrong here. And since that moment, like 15 years ago, I have been on a journey of trying to define the man I want to be and every single day focusing on Okay, who is the man I want to be and I have to improve, improve, improve. So I'm saying that because when I meet candidates, and I do meet some people, and I always ask them, okay, the man you want to be, the woman you want to be, you know, where are you? And some would say, oh, yeah, no, I'm 45, I'm at the the maximum I can be, I have pretty much attained it all (like the Dalai Lama status), I have nothing else to improv...that is very wrong. And we don't want these kinds of candidates for the future. Because if you think you've learned everything, you cannot change, you have nothing to progress on anymore, that is very dangerous for organizations, because we are going into a place we don't know. And this is one of the skills I am looking for in people (as much in your personal life as in your professional life). if you think you don't need to change, or to grow, or to be a better executive, I think there is a major self awareness problem.

Maureen Farmer

So Roger, do you give people that feedback in interviews or after an interview? Are you that candid with them?

Roger Duguay

Only if they ask because I've got caught many times in my early careers being you know...you have to be careful when you tell the truth or not. A lot of people are not ready to accept it and if they are not asking you for the feedback, and if they are not ready to accept it, they will be offended. And if they are offended, there is nothing to be accomplished here. Because the feedback is to be given only if someone is ready to accept it. So my job is not to insult people. So for the few people who truly asked me, what do you think? Anything you want to share? Did I do well? Can I improve? They open the door and I will be candid, sometimes. And I would say very often, they don't want to hear that, they are not ready to open that box.

Maureen Farmer

Right. I've seen in corporate when I was working in corporate, we had brilliant, brilliant people on our teams. We had one gentleman as an example. He was from another country and his English was not his first language. And we spoke English in this organization. He is a brilliant person, very kind. He was very popular. Everyone loved working with him. But what happened was, his communication skills were not great. And he suffered career wise, and he wasn't chosen for projects. And he wasn't promoted. And I was young at the time, I was not a manager, I was in the organization. And I know that the feedback that he desperately needed to hear was one of you know, your communication skills need to improve in order to progress your career. And the tragedy is that no one ever shared that information with him. And so he was left to languish and to wonder what on earth is wrong with me. And so I don't know whether he would have been, you know, ready to hear that feedback. But I'm sure he would have been very grateful. And it's difficult to your point because we don't want to offend or hurt. And a person does have to be ready to receive that feedback. There's no question.

Roger Duguay

I'm going to tell you two things on that. First of all, as a French Canadian who left Quebec City when I was over 21, I went to Toronto for six years as a young actuary, I suffered from that. Because I was on Bay Street. Big Toronto. Three people working as a young actuary. And I remember the feeling that they were looking at me and they would not think, 'oh, this is his second language, I'm sure in French he is very good, but in English, you know, it's not as perfect.' They would judge me. I remember the look of 'by God, he is not even expressing himself perfectly, how can he be smart?' So, I remember that and I was young, I was frustrated because it was so unfair, because those people would not even speak two languages, I would be judged on my second one. But I understood very young how life is unfair. And even if you're angry, with nothing you can do, I mean, you're not going to change them. If you want to stay there and succeed, you need to be once again self aware. And that gives the person...it is very sad because they have not told that person that. Another example and I gave the feedback. A CEO asked me, can you meet this person as a courtesy. Person came to see me, spent an hour, I was busy, but I took the time to meet that person. And when I look at her file, the first thing—she has applied for 22 roles in the last five years. And you would be surprised. Went from a VP of finance to a VP of sales to a managing partner to a DG of a museum. It was all over the place. I was like, Okay, this is insane. It's like, how can the person think she can be relevant for all those roles? And I took it upon myself to say, Listen, maybe some small advice, it doesn't help you to do that, you lose credibility with Headhunters, because you are applying on everything. She was so offended, she called back the CEO, the CEO called me back, he said, What did you do, I asked you for a favor, the person calls me back, she's angry. So I was like, okay, you know, I was trying to help a person and it came back against me. So this is why it's very delicate.

Maureen Farmer

It is very tricky. And I love this other quote from your book too. Learning and adopting are the foundations of true authenticity. And Maddison [digital marketing specialist] and I talk about this a lot, and how sometimes, even though you may not feel completely comfortable in a particular environment, if you can adapt your behavior enough to still honor the relationship, you can still be authentic. Do you agree with that?

Roger Duguay

Yes. I am convinced about this one, because I had to deal with that myself alone when I was younger. And I've always been on a mission of trying to be authentic. And when I was younger, I understood it wrongly. To me being authentic was like, okay, this is what I believe I'm going to show them all, they're going to accept me this way, I'm not going to change that to please them. And that was not...I was not being open, I was just trying to prove a point. And proving a point, no one is gaining from that. So I think the respect of a society, the respect of an environment, trying to understand what to do and what not to do in a specific environment. And that you're adapting yourself doesn't mean that you're not true to yourself. And the line is various and this is why you meet very stubborn people in the name of being truly themselves and being authentic, they're not changing at all. It's very wrong but at the same time it's very tough to tell them it's wrong. But I think you're not helping anyone, you're not helping yourself. And once again, it means that you don't grow as a person because if being authentic is being exactly the same person you were when you were 16 years old, in every single angle, that means you did not grow for the last whatever, 30 years.

Maureen Farmer

Yeah, no learning and adapting there. 

Roger Duguay

So I mean, okay, you have one kind of authenticity, which I don't think is very useful in this world.

Maureen Farmer

Yeah, sometimes the desire (this comes from your book as well), sometimes the desire to be yourself at all costs can be an obstacle to your personal evolution. And I think that was true for me when I was early, early on in corporate, and I didn't have the feedback that maybe I needed to grow and adapt to be successful in that context. And I think when you're looking for a new opportunity or a new direction, start with what you don't want to do first. Look at you know, where you don't want to be and you can narrow it down from there and then look at what are the values and the values of an organization.

Roger Duguay

It's very intimidating. I'm going to maybe try to give a but of advice for those who take the time to listen so they can take something away from this. A lot of the common mistakes I see—and not mistakes once again, because of the bad intention, there's just I think maybe a lack of understanding what the other person wants to hear—But when you come in and meet potential employers or executive service professionals like myself, you need to have done a bit of self thinking before. You need to know a little bit of what you want and what you don't want, as you said, because if you come here...a few weeks ago, someone I was talking to said 'Oh, yeah, I have a few options. I could be an entrepreneur, or could be an executive, or I could do that or do that. I was like, well, this is everything in the world, right?

Maureen Farmer

That is not helpful. I hear that all of the time. 

Roger Duguay

You're not helping, I cannot help you. So you "think", okay that is fine, think it, but don't say it. Because it's very scary for an employer to hear that you're open to anything. Because if I hire you, someone else might offer you something else and you're going to go because it sounds better. So, as an employer, and as a headhunter, we don't want to hear that. And second of all, even for you, it's overwhelming. What do you start looking for your next query or job if everything is an option? So, I always say, 'Okay, listen, in the last six months or 12 months, what have you seen? who have you met? What have you heard in terms of a job or company? Have you thought, Oh, my God, I could see myself there. Oh, that looks interesting, or I always wanted to do that'. So think about what made you react in the last 12 months and that's a very good indicator. And sometimes it'll be Oh, yeah, I've always wanted to work for Sony. Okay, why? Oh, entertainment. Okay, why? Oh, a bit of traveling. Okay. And now you start to understand what made you react this way. And after that you come in, you have a couple of options. Okay. I could look at this industry, or maybe this second one in that kind of role or this role. So now you're helping people to help you. They might think of you 'Oh, yeah, I remember last time, Julie told me that...' I would think of her. So this is one of the best pieces of advice I tell someone. You have some homework to do. Okay, if you're a friend of mine, and you're asking me, can I can I brainstorm with you? But if you succeed in having the time to speak with someone like you Maureen or an executive search professional and want to pick your brain, and you give them free time for half an hour, because this is not how you earn your money, right, you have another job, they need to be very, very clear on how you can help them and most of the time, it's not clear.

Maureen Farmer

Clarity, yes, 100%. People need to be more clear for sure. And understanding your motivations, understanding your value proposition, meaning, well, what is it I can do to to help your organization make money, save money or solve a particular problem? Make it about them, you know? And I would have to say that clarity is probably one of the biggest missing pieces in the work that I do when I start working with people and just people in general, lack of clarity, there's nothing more attractive when you meet someone that says, you know what, I want to work for a fortune 1000 company, in this industry, in this geography serving this market.

Roger Duguay

Absolutely. Yeah, that plan, you can focus, I'm going to identify the top 20. Okay, I'm going to find who is the VP of HR. Okay, I'm going to come so you have a fairly good planning strategy. And maybe their first six months, okay, I've spoken with everyone, no one's interested, fine. But at least I've turned every single stone, and that's very helpful. So I would say that is one of the keys for someone and maybe another advice as well is, you know, some people say, oh, yeah, I'd like to do something else, change career or industry, that is wonderful, but they're not ready to sacrifice. That means they want to change and keep the same level of compensation, which is always like very surprising to me. It's like you want an organization to take a bet on you to give you a chance or to do something new, but you want to stay very comfortable. You see that doesn't make sense. A lot of people don't think or don't understand that. And then if you want to have a chance at something towards the end of your life, you need to give the employer an incentive to hire you as a very senior person. So, I see a lot of those—a bit of a disconnect about wanting to do that, but I'd like to be paid the same.

Maureen Farmer

Yeah and not considering that the value that you bring to the employer is going to be down the road, especially if they're taking a chance on you. And you change in industry. Well, this has been amazing. Roger, I've really enjoyed our conversation.

Roger Duguay

That was very fun. And I'm thinking of my next book as well on trying to give more advices because there's so many stories to share. It's very overwhelming because you are lucky and I think I'm lucky myself...I found a path in my life that makes me very, very happy. And I'm fairly pleased with my role and my job. I love what I do. But I'm telling you, it's quite rare. Most of the people I see are not sure this is what they want to do. They're not sure they love what they do. They think they might love to do something else. And it's very, very overwhelming when you are into that thinking all the time...that you're not sure this is what you wanted to do. Same thing as when you're not sure you have the right partner, you have the right husband, the right wife, it is overwhelming. So we need to help those candidates and people who don't have the answers to that.

Maureen Farmer

So, I love your idea regarding the book. And I'll read that one too, when you write that one. I also would like to leave the listener here with a couple of things. I'm not going to take the time to read it here, but when you get the book, it's called and I forget what chapter it's in, but it says "optimize your first 30 seconds". And part of it has to do with virtual calls. I see this a lot. You talk about this is one thing I'd like to mention about. Not smiling into the camera when you are on a virtual call with a recruiter or a hiring decision maker, or even a networking call. Because you say here a detail that seems obvious but is no less important. "Always smile to avoid appearing negative. Too many people forget to do this. A serious and concentrated face isn't always the best idea for these situations."

Roger Duguay

You know, it's funny, Maureen because I know even though I don't see your face, I know when you smile. And people forget that. They forget that even when the video is off. We don't know that but it makes such a big difference. Because anyone...you want to be surrounded with people who have a good energy, no one wants to hire someone with a negative energy even if you're good. So keep that in mind.

Maureen Farmer

Right? Absolutely. Well, I have one more question for you. What has surprised you most in your career so far?

Roger Duguay

I think when you want something and you work really, really, really hard—I think it's truly possible to achieve it. But it takes a long time. And you need to be very focused into if you have a dream or if you want something. We live in a city, in a country, in a province where anything is possible. Anything is achievable. But you need to work and be focused. And to me it was fun to see that is possible. Because I did a lot of efforts on many things. And when it happened, just like okay, that's true. It can happen if you work hard. So that would be one thing.

Maureen Farmer

Yeah, and I know it sounds cliche, but it's so true. If you can believe it, you can achieve it. And one of my former business coaches used to say if there's a vision, there's provision and I believe that because I'm talking to you here today.

Roger Duguay

Oh, thank you. That was a great discussion. I really enjoyed it.

Maureen Farmer

And I do actually have one more question not related to the podcast but Maddison, our Podcast Producer, and I...we're always looking for great restaurants to frequent. So, could you give us your favorite one or two restaurants in Montreal?

Roger Duguay

Oh my god, yes. I would say my top two...that it is a must next time you come here. First one is Grazilla, an Italian restaurant downtown Montreal. The owners are amazing. The food is spectacular. And the wine is fabulous. So, that would be the number one. Number two is more of an Asian Japanese restaurant called Jatoba. The ambiance, the food is just amazing. So those two would be a must if you haven't gotten there yet.

Maureen Farmer

I haven't gotten there yet. So we'll put them on our list, Roger. It's been such a pleasure. Maybe when you get that book written and published, we'll have you back and have another chat.

Roger Duguay

Thank you so much. Have a great day!

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