Yes. So, when I think of my experience over the last 12 years of working with clients and executive candidates, as a recruiter myself, I have done some recruiting in my past, primarily now I work in personal branding and leadership optimization, and another section of our practice is career services. 

So, I would have to say that when people are considering their next move, oftentimes they think about an industry change.

Maddison Shears

Right. And it's generally because they're tired, bored, or maybe frustrated. It can be really exciting to consider an industry change. And I guess we should probably also point out the difference between an industry change and a functional change for the sake of the conversation.

Maureen Farmer

Sure, absolutely. So, industry changes would be going from. Let's say you're a CEO of a manufacturing organization and you want to make a transition into SaaS technology, software as a service technology. That would be, uh, an example of a clear example of an industry change. A functional change would be a CFO wanting to transition into marketing, for example, or a marketing executive who would want to transition into a CFO role.

Now, many people here will think, well, how can you go from a marketing role into a CFO role? Well, I know for a fact I've worked with a few clients who served as CFOs who didn't even have a CPA and they also didn't have a finance major, but they were very, very well versed in the financials of the organization. And had really, really good relationships with the board of directors, and therefore had garnered the trust of the board and was invited in to serve as a CFO. Eventually this person became the CEO of the company. It was a publicly traded, global organization, and he took over and ended up creating new businesses within this legacy business.

That's a functional change. Now, had he tried to make a functional change at the same time as trying to make an industry change, that might have been a much more daunting task. So, oftentimes, to Maddie's point, executives, if they have undergone a severance or they've left the company, they've been terminated, they have resigned, they have retired...oftentimes because the trigger event is usually at the culmination of an M&A, divestiture, a strategic sale. Maybe the executive is selling a business. They are usually, you know, tired, bored, or frustrated. They think that a new industry is going to present a fresher challenge and be more engaging.

And oftentimes, executives, as I just mentioned, will consider an industry change most seriously when they are unemployed, just as I just mentioned, or a business owner wanting to go from the sale of the company into a corporate role and so on and so forth. 

Maddison Shears

Right. And so I imagine this would be or can be quite challenging. 

And so from your perspective, Maureen, you know, all the experience you have and all the different clients that you've worked with, what do you think our listeners should consider, you know, when managing their expectations of an industry change?

Maureen Farmer

Right. It's an excellent question and it's one that comes up a lot and I recommend...there's a couple of scenarios.

If you have lots of time and you have the luxury of time and have you a degree of working capital that you can tap into while you're making an industry change, sure, consider it. Move forward, explore, leverage your centers of influence. Understand where you can add value in another industry.

However, when you are considering an industry change, working with recruiters is not always going to be the best strategy.

Maddison Shears

Mm-hmm. Why is that?

Maureen Farmer

Recruiters, whether they're internal or third party contingency retained, are incentivized to recruit candidates that match the needs of the organization as perfectly as possible. All the boxes need to be ticked. So think about this, think about a company, an organization, a business who is going to hire a CEO. Let's use a CEO as an example. So, the CEO will be earning $500,000 a year. The company is going to pay a recruiter to recruit and select a suitable candidate. So, if they are paid 20% of the CEO's first year compensation, that is going to be a significant amount of money. So organizations are not looking for candidates who are changing industries, it doesn't make sense for a company to invest in a significant search—think of a national or international search for somebody who wants to change industries. Why might that be?

Maddison Shears

Well, I imagine that it would require a lot more effort and resources, and there's more of a risk potentially in bringing them in if they are doing an industry change and they don't have the expertise in that particular market vertical than, you know, it could be a risk bringing them on despite their experience and, you know, functional expertise, they might struggle in a new industry.

Maureen Farmer

I mean, I think it's a pretty logical conclusion to come to. And while you know, many candidates are very, to your point, they are credentialed, they're experienced, they will not be able to bring as much value to a new industry as a previous industry.

Now, there are situations where organizations want the experience from outside the industry. Say for example, you know, it's an energy company and it's a fully integrated energy company and they are looking for...voice of the customer experience, they may want to bring in an executive from another vertical, maybe retail grocery or retail consumer goods to help learn how to implement and integrate the voice of the customer into their products and services.

That's very rare. That doesn't happen often, so organizations are really looking for someone to hit the ground running quickly. And so therefore an industry change like that can be a very daunting exercise for a CEO candidate and a recruiter. I know I certainly would not be interested in speaking with someone on behalf of a client who is looking to change an industry.

The value is just not there for the recruiter and the value is not there for the recruiter's client. So if, if you're planning an industry change, there's a number of different ways to do it, but the best way to do it is when you have lots of runway and when you are currently employed.

So, think about that as an exit strategy, a long-term exit strategy for a year or so out where you can leverage centers of influence during that period of time. And so there are a couple of ways to do that. You and I have talked about that before. Shall we launch into the up and over model?

Maddison Shears

Yes!

Maureen Farmer

So, the up and over model is where the CEO candidate is seeking an organization that is looking for value and is looking for a specific area of expertise. So, the strategy can be...you join the company, and this is more so for C-level rather than CEO roles, although it certainly can happen where a CEO will join an organization as the COO. And part of the succession planning is after a year or two or specified period of time, the COO is earmarked for the CEO position.

That's definitely a strategy and it's a succession plan. It's also a job search strategy, so it's important to think about, you know, how you're going to launch this pitch to a board of directors. Will a recruiter help you with that process? Potentially. I see this more of a direct contact, direct connect strategy where you have a list of organizations you know you can help, even though you're outside the industry. You leverage your centers of influence and contact boards of directors directly and establish the relationship well in advance of a potential job offer...it can be an excellent strategy to help change an industry.

And I think it's important too, to think about why you want to change an industry. What is it about the industry now? Of course, all things being equal, there are industries that are in decline, industries that are shrinking right now, heavy manufacturing is one of them, so that would certainly make sense if you're in heavy manufacturing and you want to transition out into a different industry. In that particular case, Maddie, we've talked about this before, is targeting industry adjacent businesses and organizations.

Maddison Shears

So what would be an example? Industries that are adjacent to manufacturing specifically. So sticking to that example.

Maureen Farmer

Sure. So industry adjacent would be, you know, let's say you are in an automobile manufacturing organization. Well, an industry adjacent could be a supplier to the automobile manufacturing industry as an example, because you're just targeting a slightly...an adjacent business, a supplier manufacturing of automobile parts. It could be like that. So it's thinking about what suppliers serve your industry and how you can leverage centers of influence within that ecosystem.

So you have customers, you have suppliers. Now the caveat here is to ensure that you don't have a non-compete clause in your employment agreement that is going to preclude you from approaching certain types of industries and customers and so forth.

If there is no non-compete, then this is an excellent strategy. If there is a non-compete, well that takes a little bit more of a customized, search and strategy.

Maddison Shears

Mm-hmm, right. So it's just creating a plan for yourself with the least amount of roadblocks as possible. And if there are roadblocks, then just having micro strategies for figuring out how to get around those. The centers of influence is a really interesting topic. 

I mean, we could talk about that alone forever. One possible option could be, let's say that you don't have a long runway, and let's say that you know you don't have the luxury of having money put aside to take your time in making this plan. Perhaps what it looks like is staying where you are, but possibly joining a board that is maybe in an industry that you're targeting. Because as Maureen said, sometimes companies are interested in having that diverse expertise to help support an organization. So, if you were tapping into a different industry that you're interested in that's separate from the one that you're currently in, a strategy might be joining a board that's in that industry and they may value your expertise from your particular industry because it's different from, you know, the other conversations they're having around the table. Is that an option as well?

Maureen Farmer

Oh, that's an excellent option and I hadn't thought of that immediately, one that came to mind. That is an excellent strategy that Maddie has just explained here. 100%. There is one I was thinking of, as you were explaining the board advisory route or the board seat route would be trade associations. So, oftentimes trade associations are looking for industry experts to serve on their boards, to set policy, to do market research, to share best practices.

So, a really great way to create demand for your services is to serve in that way. And speaking of Adjacencies, one adjacent way to demonstrate and express and leverage your thought leadership is through speaking at trade association events. Especially outside of the industry. So, if it's a multi-vertical trade association where many different industries gather…you know, maybe it's a policy think tank, maybe it is an industry adjacent organization. Then you can position yourself as an expert by speaking at dinner events. A great number of clients that we've worked with in the past have used that strategy beautifully.

And if you set a strategy and a plan to speak quarterly, suppose you're going to be a member of a trade association and position yourself as a thought leader and create demand for yourself by speaking at keynote events. That's a great way to raise your visibility and create demand for your services while building your centers of influence.

Maddison Shears

Yeah, exactly. Something to consider would also be if you're making an industry change, it might be that your CV and any of your branding assets currently don't demonstrate the expertise that you have that could, you know, cross-functionally work in a different industry. and we, we have clients sort of pursue Westgate because of that as well.

Right. Maureen? They know that they have the experience and expertise where they could tap into a different industry, but the wording of their CV and the wording of their messaging and their visibility has somewhat become, you know, pigeon-holed. And hey don't know necessarily how to refine the messaging. Rejuvenating their messaging in a way that's going to target different industries, so that if you are speaking at events, you know you're proving your expertise, but perhaps a leave-behind of some kind, some sort of branding asset doesn't necessarily demonstrate what you're capable of doing.

So, that is another element that you'd have to consider. And again, if you have a longer runway, these are all things that you can consider. But if you don't have that luxury and you have to stay where you are for the time being, these are things that you would want to be working on over time.

Maureen Farmer

The idea is to be working on your career while you're working in your career.

Maddison Shears

Yes, nailed it!

Maureen Farmer

Yeah, I think that's it. And I will say that the majority of the clients that we work with, not that age is a proxy for, for requirement for services by any means. But generally speaking, you know, individuals who...probably north of 40 to a certain degree...we've worked with clients well beyond that, but by the time you are 40...in their early forties, you know, sometimes you've accomplished a lot and you may have been rapidly promoted and repeatedly recruited, then all of a sudden your career comes to a standstill. You're not sure what to do. And that's when we often see this phenomenon. And so we're actually working with someone right now, and we want to protect confidentiality. But this is a very influential industry...they're not necessarily known outside their industry, but very well known in the industry—a technology and financial technology vertical. Everything that is written in the collateral is focused on technology when in fact, this person actually brought new business into the company  as a chief technology officer. And so he has had direct impact on the P&L, he's had direct impact on growing the footprint of the business, but most of the career collateral is focused on the technology function, which is obviously very, very important.

But it's not all he can do and so we focus on business leadership first and then functional leadership second, regardless of who we work with. So I will say that industry changes are not a strategy I would consider if you have a short runway. If you have a short runway, what I would recommend doing is staying within your industry and looking at organizations.

Let's just say for example, you know, and this has happened because of the current economic climate. Right now, a number of our clients know that their positions are coming to an end at the end of Q1, for example. And it may be that they now need to plan. So, my recommendation for that is to stay close as possible to your current industry and vertical as you're targeting your next role. Of course, all things being considered that there's no non-compete because that will impact your strategy. But if there is no non-compete in your employment agreement, then you can start thinking about what organizations are very, very similar to the organization you're currently in, and what is your value proposition? What is it that you can do to make money, save money, solve a problem for an organization similar to your own? Once you land that next opportunity in an organization that's similar to your own, you can start your exit strategy for an industry change if that's what you want to do, because it will take a little bit of time to do so.

Maddison Shears

Yeah, so you're basically scratching that itch whether you're tired, bored, or frustrated with where you currently are, ou can sort of, you know, get that dealt with first and then when you're content enough in something new—but still the same industry, then you probably will also have more mental capacity to bring on a larger strategy for an industry change as well.

Maureen Farmer

Right. And so we mentioned here today, the over and up model and we will include a link to that model in the show notes for your own reference. Another question we often get that is not specific to industry change is, how do I ask my centers of influence to help? And my answer to that is don't ask them.

Come to the conversation with your centers of influence, with a solution for them. I love the subject line—I learned the subject line from a colleague that we work with. Her name is Alicia. In the subject line of the email, it says, "seeking your collaboration". I think that's brilliant. Most business leaders, regardless of who they are, struggle with asking for help.

My recommendation is to come to the conversation from a place of collaboration. So while you're going to ask the other person for information or assistance, you're also going to offer them something in return. What might that be, Maddie? Yeah, it could be. It could be a resource that you came across that you think would interest them. Could be a podcast, you know. I listened to this podcast, you could summarize briefly for them what it's about, saving them time. You could share an article with them, um, and then you can sort of round out that, that email or that request by saying, I'd love to discuss this topic a little bit more with you in addition to that.

And then have, you know your specific ask and the specific ask could be, I'm looking for information on X industry. I know you have some experience here. I would love to get together for a cup of coffee or a Zoom call to have a short conversation. It's been a while since we connected. If you can, can do this in person, do it, and always offer to pay. Dinner is the best evening. Dinner is the best time to get together with someone. It's, it's more relaxing. You don't have to worry about getting back to the office and you can take your time with the conversation.

Maddison Shears

Yeah, absolutely. And it, it'll look different for each person. You might know somebody that you'd like them, you'd like to introduce to them. It's sort of a micro version of what you're going to do for an organization. So, you're networking with people and you're thinking to yourself, what can I do for them? How could I, you know, make them money, save the money or solve a problem for them? So, if you're thinking about that on a smaller scale, when reaching out and essentially asking for a request, then you'll feel a lot better about it. And ultimately they'll remember you.

Maureen Farmer

So, it feels congruent. It feels like a congruent transaction. So you're offering something in return. And if that's not possible, you can still make the offer, you know, "look Bill, if there's anything that I can ever do for you, let me know. Or if you're ever in town, let me know and we can get together. I can show you the city."

Maddison Shears

Yeah, I mean, I think the worst thing that's going to happen is, you know, they decline and say that they don't have time, but you'll never know if you don't try. And ultimately, I think in this day and age, everybody sort of has the same networking mindset and mentorship is a huge trend as well. So, I think for the most part, people already understand that having a conversation with someone will lead to an expansion of their own network and I think generally, in my experience anyway, most people are happy to have a conversation.

I think the only thing I would add is in advance of that meeting, you know, come fully prepared and do a good amount of due diligence, because some people have all kinds of these conversations in a week and you really want to show up and prove that you've put in effort before this conversation.

You want to keep it concise and specific and relevant to their needs.

Maureen Farmer

So ,this has been a, a wonderful conversation, Maddie, and it's one that I've been wanting to have for a really long time. And I encourage anyone who is struggling with an industry change or is curious about the over and up model…we also have an up and over model as well. I would be delighted to have the conversation.

I am wanting to ask you, Maddie, what are a couple of your favorite restaurants? I know we've had this conversation before, but true to our commitment to build that list…give me the name of one or two restaurants that you haven't mentioned already.

Maddison Shears

Okay, woohoo! Yes. I will say Toronto is never short of restaurants, so I will always have options to share aside from a couple I've already mentioned in the past that will be part of our large restaurant list that continues to grow. I would recommend a restaurant called Mamakas. So, it's Greek and it is absolutely delicious. I believe there's a couple locations. My favorite one is in Little Italy (Toronto) and it's near Ossington, which is a strip where there's lots of really excellent restaurants, incredible food. Great ambiance and the service is wonderful as well.

Maureen Farmer

Awesome. Thank you for that. And I'm going to mention the Side Hustle.

The Side Hustle is located in downtown Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, Canada, and 21 Portland Street to be exact. And actually Maddie and I had lunch there the last time she was in town. And what I liked about the side hustle is, the design of the interior, it's has a little bit of a…it has an urban feel. The service is fantastic, the food is amazing, and it's quick.

We went there for lunch. We were in and out within an hour. And I have to say that when I go to a restaurant, I measure the enjoyment of the experience, as much on the service as the food. And I have to say that this place definitely measures up on both points.

So, as the year comes to an end, this is our very last podcast for the year. We're going into year three of our podcast production. So, we're delighted that you were able to join us today, and we wish you all the best for the new year.

Maddison Shears

Yes. Thank you so much for having me again, Maureen.

Maureen Farmer

You're welcome. My pleasure. Happy New Year!

Maddison Shears

Happy New Year!